The Vampire Lovers (Queer Horror)
This was nearly an episode about Lesbian Vampire Killers. Instead, we we have chosen the 1970s vampiric gothic horror masterpiece, The Vampire Lovers starring Ingrid Pitt and Peter Cushing. Is it actually scary? Probably not, but vampires are inherently queer and this one is actually a lesbian! This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen! New episodes every other Thursday. Find Us on the Internet Super Highway - Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod - Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast - Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/ - Multitude: @MultitudeShows Production - Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John - Editor: Julia Schifini - Executive Producer: Multitude - Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd Transcript [Intro Music] JAZZA: Welcome to the Queer Movie Podcast, celebrating the best. ROWAN: And worst. JAZZA: In LGBTQ+ cinema. One glorious genre at a time. ROWAN: I'm Rowan Ellis. JAZZA: And I'm Jazza John. Each episode we discuss a movie from a different genre of cinema. ROWAN: This episode, genre is-- ROWAN & JAZZA: Queer Horror.. JAZZA: [vampire laugh] ROWAN: Thanks, Jazza. JAZZA: But, before we dive into this week's episode, Rowan, what's the gayest thing you've done since we last spoke? ROWAN: Well, this is actually something that I've wanted to do for a long time. But every time I've tried to do it, there's been a It's not been available for me. And that is volunteering for a Queer Organization specifically for a Queer Youth Group or kind of youth mentoring organization, something like that. And there's, sadly not a lot of them in London, and a lot of them kind of were at capacity or weren't doing their services because of COVID. But at the beginning of the year, I applied and I've just found out today that I've been accepted, so I'm very excited. I've got to do some training, obviously, very soon, but yeah, I'm gonna get to do some mentoring. JAZZA: It's gonna be so cool. And you're officially becoming a Queer Elder-- ROWAN: Oh my God. JAZZA: --soon anyway, aren't you? ROWAN: Yeah, I am. JAZZA: Yeah. ROWAN: In a week's time, I will indeed hit 30 and therefore-- JAZZA: Good then. ROWAN: --become an OAP. JAZZA: Uh-huh. As a as a cis gay man, I stopped aging at 24. So let me know-- ROWAN: You never will reach that, yeah, I'll let you know what it's like. JAZZA: Awesome. Thank you so much. ROWAN: And Jazza, what's the gayest thing that you've done since we last spoke? JAZZA: So recently, the UK started lifting lockdown restrictions, right? And we were able to have familiar relations again. I had relations with an individual and was able for the first time to actually complete a full session of prep. Do you know how prep works? ROWAN: I was wondering where you were going with it. I was like, complete a full session of what? JAZZA: Yeah, it's not session-- ROWAN: --[2:00] I was like a full, a full session of-- JAZZA: A full of [2:03] like a-- ROWAN: --[2:03] relations, you able to what? JAZZA: I full cycle, a full cycle of [2:06]. ROWAN: Pretty you. JAZZA: So I do have that you're able to get it on the NHS now. And it is for anybody who doesn't know a medication that prevents you from getting HIV. And how it works is you're meant to take it two hours before you have relations. And then afterwards you've had relations in order to properly protect yourself. In the past, I have only ever prepared to have the relations and never had to complete the whole cycle of prep. ROWAN: Oh my God, that's the saddest thing I've ever heard, that's hilarious. JAZZA: Is it. ROWAN: You know what, that was excellent. That was a very good-- JAZZA: Thank you-- ROWAN: --gayest thing I've done since [2:42]-- JAZZA: Yeah yeah yeah. I feel like an actual adult now. ROWAN: Look at you. JAZZA: [2:45] yeah, look at me. Man in my 30s, finally able to look after myself. ROWAN: Full disclosure to everyone listening, Jazza as he said that grinning like a little schoolboy does have a tiny gnome figurine right behi--as he said, I felt like such an adult. There is a tiny gnome figurine right behind him. JAZZA: I'm an adult who collects plushies and plays D&D like these are-- ROWAN: You know what, fair enough. JAZZA: Yeah, these are not things that are mutually exclusive. ROWAN: Yeah, you know what, you're right. [3:09] [Transition Music] JAZZA: The film we have chosen for today is the 1970s vampiric Gothic horror masterpiece. The Vampire Lovers, starring Ingrid Pitt, and the absolute legendary Peter Cushing. So without further ado, let's start nibbling away at Roy Ward Baker's, The Vampire Lovers. ROWAN & JAZZA: [trumpet sound] ROWAN: Are you anticipating some kind of like dramatic horror music [3:47]-- JAZZA: Yeah, in my head like it's the the title card. ROWAN: Excellent. JAZZA: I actually, vampire [3:53]. ROWAN: I know we just said that we were going to go straight into talking about the history of the genre and the-- JAZZA: Uh-hmm. ROWAN: --context of it. But I just also need everyone to know not to make this the call out Jazza Podcast. But-- JAZZA: It it already is. ROWAN: --I came up with a whole list of, honestly, iconic wonderful, queer horror movies have come out. Especially some in the last few years. Because we have had an absolute amazing blossoming of queer horror within the last few years. I came up with an amazing shortlist. Jazza, came up with a movie that I immediately vetoed. That is the movie lesbian Vampire Killers. JAZZA: Uh-hmm. Which has James-- ROWAN: Which has-- JAZZA: Corden in it. ROWAN: --James Corden in it, is therefore I hate crime. And I immediately vetoed it. And then the list Jazza went through the list and it. Basically the secret came out that Jazza is a massive baby. And essentially would just was not able to watch an actual horror movie. And so-- JAZZA: Uh-hmm. ROWAN: --we have watched this movie, which is, horror in the most technical sense of the word. JAZZA: No, but it's like, it's it's a lot of foundations of horror, like, like it's a classic Gothic, lots of dark cobwebby castles. Lots of screen Queens, a couple of screen Kings. ROWAN: Yes, every element of horror except the bit where it's scary, which I think suited Jazza just fine. JAZZA: Yeah. ROWAN: I think that was-- JAZZA: 100% ROWAN: --that was, I think he's very pleased with himself that he managed to get this. Because the other, we watched some of the trailers together. And there were a few trailers that Jazz stopped halfway through and went, "Oh, yes, I think we get the idea." And then, and it was very obvious why. JAZZA: Apparently, I'm quite good to watch horror movies with. Just know that if you ever watch a a legitimate horror movie with me, that is actually scary. I'm not having a nice time. And you know what, in this podcast that I am lucky enough to have with you, Rowan. I want to have a nice time, you know? And I don't think that's too much to ask. ROWAN: Okay, well, when we connect, spend actual time together, maybe I'll just I'll be like, oh, yeah, let's watch this nice little, like animated children's movie and then just slip in a horror movie instead. You could just hold onto my hand. JAZZA: Maybe next year's Halloween, we can have a special episode again. And you couldn't actually scare the hell out of me, it will be good. ROWAN: Yeah, if everyone could just audio clip Jazza, just then essentially promising on his on his firstborn son that he will watch a horror movie with me, that'd be great. So I know that Jazza, you've done normally when we watch these movies, we do a little bit of context. And then we talk to each other and go, oh, wait, shit, did we do the same context maybe hopefully, we looked up different bits of trivia otherwise is going to be very boring for both of us. And luckily, we had kind of done a mix. So I know that you've looked up Hammer Horror, which is the kind of studio and very specific niche genre that this particular movie is in. So would you like to tell me about it? I'm ready to learn. JAZZA: Yeah yeah yeah, so a Hammer, also great name, Hammer Productions. They were a production house in the UK, who were famous for bringing a lot of classic horror from the black and white era of the 1930s into color. We making a lot of the classics like Frankenstein, Dracula, The Mummy, etc. Remaking them into color movies for audiences throughout the 1950s and 60s. The other thing that they were very well known for doing is having a butt ton of sequels for everything. So this particular movie that we're doing. The Vampire Lovers, has two sequels to it. Lust for a Vampire, released the following year, and then Twins of Evil. Which as far as I have been able to find out on the Wikipedia page was just kind of like the same plot two more times, but with different actors. But to be fair, if the punters are going to go and watch it, then why not right? The reason the The Vampire Lovers itself is quite interesting, and is that a little bit of a tipping point in terms of cinema, is because it was towards the end of the strictness of the Hays Code in the US, which is a piece of us legislation that was very tight collared, around the depictions of sex, nudity, deviant acts like homosexuality. ROWAN: I'm gonna be annoying and interrupt here is the Queer Film Historian bitch on this podcast. Because I think it's genuinely interesting. It wasn't technically a piece of like Governmental Legislation as such, it was a code that was self-imposed by Hollywood on itself, specifically, because they thought that the government will be even more harsh, so they were like, oh, shit, like, let let's just, we promise no titties, no gays, no, no-- JAZZA: No titties, no gays. ROWAN: [8:39] for gays, we promise. And and so yeah, no, it's it's a, it's one of those kind of really interesting things actually happened with the comic, comic books as well, the Comic Code Authority happened as well. JAZZA: Mmm. ROWAN: A lot of industries at the time were like, well, I guess if someone's gonna do it, it might as well be us, to ourselves. JAZZA: Uh-hmm. Yeah yeah yeah. And this was kind of like, towards the end of the prolific nature of the Hays Code. And it was still actually really hard to get this past the censors. The Vampire Lovers, which obviously, is pretty gay. There's naked ladies and there's titties absolutely everywhere. And there's also a man who dies while he's having a piss. So it's not really kind of like the highest brow of entertainment. But the reason that they were able to get especially the the gay shit through the censors, even at the time as they were expanding. Was because it was based on the original source text from the 1800s, Carmilla, which is like a classic text. And because it's seen as a classic text, they were like, actually, this is basically Shakespeare. I don't think anybody actually said that. But essentially, that's how they managed to to get around it. ROWAN: Just being true to the original. JAZZA: Yeah yeah, exactly. But yeah, we're watching a a movie about lesbian vampires. Of course, there's going to be a little bit of a camper and Gothic horror is always just a little bit of camp. But it's also a really interesting moment in kind of like the attitudes of prudishness, that were in Hollywood throughout the 50s and 60s. ROWAN: Absolutely. I do, I do agree with you like Hammer Horror is just camp, it's just campy. Like it just has that energy to it in general-- JAZZA: It is now. ROWAN: --and I think as well like well, we'll talk about this when we're actually talking about the plot and the performances and stuff in the next section. But yeah, the acting of the time was not exactly the most based in like realism. And and I think that that style of acting that was popular then I think just is so imbued with camp-- JAZZA: Uh-huh. ROWAN: --as you look back on it now. Even if this hadn't had a load of vampires in it, I feel like it still would have felt a little bit-- JAZZA: Uh-hmm. ROWAN: --kind of queer energy. JAZZA: A 100%. It reminded me an awful lot of like Ryan Murphy guy. ROWAN: Oh, yeah. JAZZA: Which obviously is referential to this era of horror. And I was like, Oh, I 100% understand where all of these references now come from in, like our modern media as well. Rowan, you had, a you also went away and did some of your own research you clever bookworm slash website were around like, vampires, sexuality, all of those things. Would you end up fine, come on, show and tell. ROWAN: Well, basically, for those for those who don't know about the history of the vampire, it's kind of appears in a lot of different folktales and legends around different places. Just I think the idea of someone who needs to drain other people of their blood, which is very much linked to like, you know, lifeforce in a lot of cultures. It makes sense that there will be kind of mythology around that, and and kind of scary tales, and all that kind of thing. But it kind of didn't necessarily get a kind of literary grounding until the early 1800s. Were John Polidori, wrote The Vampyre, which was actually created kind of as part of the sort of Gothic horror writing contest that also produced, Frankenstein. It was a good, it was a good time that they were having in that rainy manor house. And kind of interestingly, the history of vampires, I think, has not necessarily been, obviously in the mainstream link to queerness. But when you start looking into the history of it, it's a lot of like reading between the lines when it's going on. So, for example, that original text of Vampyre, a lot of people kind of thought that potentially the that kind of central character was based on Lord Byron. There was a bit of a mix up as to who had originally written the tale. And it was attributed Lord Byron originally and then kind of had to be redacted. And so you kind of have this element of like, oh, there's this creeping queerness in there. And that only became like, more intensified when it came to Dracula, which came a bit later. Because again, Bram Stoker, lots of rumors about him being gay, he had a very close relationship with Oscar Wilde. He wrote some frankly, adoring love letters to Walt Whitman, really, really, very gay letters to Walt Whitman. And there are just some quotes that come up in the book that feel very much like they are centered around the kind of repressed, a repressed homosexuality-- JAZZA: Uh-hmm. ROWAN: --shall we say. A lot of people have pointed out the fact that he basically started to write Dracula very, very soon after Oscar Wilde's trial and conviction. And that there was potentially a link between that and like the anxieties of being this like queer man who was worried about being like, discovered. So obviously, as with much of queer history, it is not provable. But I do think it's very interesting. And it's something a lot of people have have talked about. But yeah, I think vampire stories in general, as well as being kind of horror, obviously have a lot of links to the idea of sexuality, and and sexual anxieties, I guess over the years. JAZZA: When we're looking at this area as well. It's really difficult to kind of like put the gay label on it. Because it wasn't a term that they used for themselves-- ROWAN: No. JAZZA: --either, but we're just kind of trying to view it for our own lens. ROWAN: Yeah, exactly. So in Dracula, for example, you've got Lucy, the character of Lucy, who's this kind of like symbol of the new woman. So kind of more independent and breaking free of the constraints of society, especially sexual constraints. And so if she sort of gives herself or is compromised by this kind of foreign invader, then she becomes this corrupted figure, which is very, you know, if you read through the lines, metaphorically, it's very much a sort of like fallen woman virginity loss kind of situation. And then yeah, I mean, spoiler alert for Dracula, but she ends up being staked by like, all of the men who she had been pursuing at one point or another during the story, and dies-- JAZZA: Uh-hmm. ROWAN: --this death that's very, like writhing around and bleeding, and it's very kind of like, you know, symbolically resonant in a lot of ways. So yeah, I think I think that like even if you come to Twilight, or to more modern depictions of vampires, it doesn't necessarily have a Victorians lens of sexuality. It has a modern lens, but it's still feels like it might be commenting in some way. So there's a lot more sort of, in the vampire as the romantic lead for women's or like girls fiction, it becomes much more about a man who needs to control his natural impulses, and that he's able to do it for you. The female love interest. JAZZA: That's the Twilight stuff isn't? ROWAN: Exactly. JAZZA: I'll be honest, I wasn't even I wasn't even making that link in like, I feel like Twilight is such a long time ago now. ROWAN: Ancient history. JAZZA: Yeah, yeah. But like, seriously, but yeah, I didn't even make that link of kind of like sexual request-ness. But then I haven't really read, I haven't read any of the Twilight books, I've only seen the movie. So maybe that's why it's not at the front of my mind. ROWAN: Well, allegedly Stephenie Meyer did come up with the idea from some kind of romantically charged dream that she had. And she is quite from quite a religious background. So I think that the sexual repression and morality element to it is, it's not has not been not commented on by people in the past. So yeah, so I definitely think that the vampire legend and mythology and stuff has always had links to sex in some way and to that kind of forbidden element of sex. And I think that that only gets more apparent when you talk about sex that is genuinely forbidden and taboo in the way that kind of same gender relationships might be. So yeah, it completely makes sense, lesbian vampires completely make sense on a literary level. And it very much is not just a kind of, ohhh, she's sexy, and she's a lesbian, and she's a vampire. It's like, oh, there is actually some kind of literary backing to making this a a thing in your films. JAZZA: Did you have because I accidentally came across this while I was looking through stuff around the source material for The Vampire Lovers, which is like a a vampire novel that predates Dracula by a couple of decades called Carmilla. About a lesbian female vampire. And apparently she's based on this Hungarian, I believe she's a Princess. She's a fancy person, uhm, called Elizabeth Boothroyd. Have you seen her a bit about her? ROWAN: If this is who I think it is? Yeah, I think she married into a family and got an absolute ton of land and power from it and use that to allegedly just kill a lot of servant girls, and some minor nobility. JAZZA: Some set I don't think we have to say allegedly anymore. This was in like the the 15, 16 [16:54]-- ROWAN: She's not gonna [16:55]-- JAZZA: [16:56] I think we're gonna get sued by Elizabeth III of Hungary fame, but she apparently killed up to 650 people and there was some people who say that she used to bathe in their blood to maintain like youth? Some of this is urban legends now, and there's some people that say that she inspired because she was from the Kingdom of Hungary. Which at that time included, Slovakia and Romania, which is kind of like the part of the world that is where like, vampiric culture comes from, I guess? And some people even suggest that she inspired Carmilla and Dracula. But yeah, like, it's an interesting part of kind of like also the, the empowered woman as well, which was definitely, I mean, deviant for the time that vampire novels became really, really big in the Victorian era. But certainly for like the 1500-1600s when she was alive, as well. And kind of like the fear and the weariness of the empowered, maybe sexualized women as well. I kind of like themes that run through this type of horror too. ROWAN: Indeed, without I guess, should we go into talking about the actual movie and how the lesbian vampires sort of displays herself. JAZZA: Displays herself. ROWAN: Displays herself in this movie JAZZA: Sometimes literally displays herself-- ROWAN: Quite literally. JAZZA: Uh-hmm. [18:15] [Transition Music] [18:15] [ADS] JAZZA: Dear listener, there's only so many times you can lean on your ability to make a [18:25] gin and tonic. Trust me, I've had the headaches to prove it. Sometimes you need to shake up your drinks trolley, pun intended, and shaker and spoon subscription cocktail box is the perfect way to do that. Each box they send you contains enough ingredients to make three different cocktails with your favorite Spirits. All you need is to buy your own bottle and then you have all you need to craft 12 cocktails at home. It's between 40 and 50 of your American dollars every month, excluding the price of the bottle you buy. So is a sensible way to expand your drinking palette. You can even skip boxes or cancel whenever you like, my darlin'. Imagine if you will, clowning around some popcorn with your loved ones and a fancy cocktail in hand. Enjoying your own Queer Movie Night. Yes, you too, can experience what we experienced together here on this podcast. We support you. And don't forget to get $20 off your first box by going to shakerandspoon.com/queermovie, that's shakerandspoon.com/queermovie. Queer Movie Podcast is part of Multitude which is like a cool little collective of creatives. We like to give our audio siblings a shout out every now and again. And I'm very excited to recommend to you X0 Law. In case you haven't noticed yet, Rowan and I are big nerds. Rowan has her Disney and D&D, I have my love of Final Fantasy in the expanse novels. So this podcast is like catnip to us. Dr. Moyer McTeer is the host and as the coolest job description of Astrophysicist and folklorist. Which honestly, has made wondering what I've been doing with my life. Each episode she goes through the how to of fictional world creation, meaning you can apply her findings to any and all creative projects that you yourself are working on. Are you creating a home route for your D&D table? Are you scribbling away on your first Sci-fi novel? Do you find this stuff interesting? That's fine, too. Honestly, it's necessary educational listening. I had a particularly fun time listening to Moyer and guest Clark Robinson go through the mechanics of building a world magic system. And I think you'll find it interesting too. So go give X0 Law a listen, and tell the doctor we sent you. Now, back to the show. [21:02] [Transition Music] ROWAN: So we normally split this into three different parts. JAZZA: Uh-hmm. ROWAN: We haven't conferred beforehand about what those parts are going to look like for this particular movie. But I have a feeling that we have a very similar thru line. JAZZA: Hmm. ROWAN: The first part I have referred to, because there was only one way we could refer to this part, given that in so many other films that we have covered in our previous episodes. This was also the title of a section of the film. JAZZA: Uh-hmm. ROWAN: The Party and its Aftermath. JAZZA: Yeah. 100% It starts with the party and its aftermath. It's very all interesting things start with a party, as does this movie. ROWAN: Yeah, for some reason, so many stories. Normally, the party in its aftermath is the last act. JAZZA: Uh-hmm. ROWAN: Whereas in this one, it's, it's the first so essentially, what happens at the beginning of this movie is that we have this man who's narrating talking about the fact that his sister has died and he is going on this revenge plot. Castle ruins, evil European family, some very helpful vampire lore up front. He lets us-- JAZZA: Uh-huh. ROWAN: know you got to decapitate them. You got a stake in through the heart. We're getting a lot of exposition, but you know what, that's just how he rolls. JAZZA: It was quick. It was quick and acceptable. I feel like you know, for [22:20]-- ROWAN: Ding, ding, ding! Here we go. JAZZA: But also, is anyone gonna come into something called The Vampire Lovers, cold as to what a vampire is. ROWAN: Unlikely. JAZZA: Like, I feel like most people are probably gonna know broadly, what a vampire is and how you kill it. ROWAN: Exactly. So it's it's the classic star of the vampire killer is here. He's narrating to us what's about to happen. We have a very fast zoom in on a guy's neck with fang bites. The camera angles and uses within this movie are just very intense. They really love a good zoom in, dramatic zoom in. They really like a good kind of interesting shots, shall we say throughout this. Which I did, did think heighten the camp element. But with, yeah, very quintessential have a horror stuff. The evil figure of the vampire looked like I would say a Halloween sheet ghost costume, mixed with a Dementor. JAZZA: Oh, well, you have ruined that now. I thought it looks like really quite impressive. ROWAN: I did as well. Yeah, no, that isn't to diminish how-- JAZZA: Okay, cool. ROWAN: --creepy it did look. JAZZA: Cool. I think that is an accurate description of what it was dressed as to be fair. ROWAN: Yeah, I was like, you know what, if people aren't going to go back and watch this movie, if they're just listening this to to hear a little bit about lesbian vampires. I want to paint them a picture. And the picture is-- JAZZA: Uh-hmm. ROWAN: --a teenager. You know what I'm going to build on this picture. The picture is a teenager who has been asked by their parents to take out their little kid sister and the local sisters friends trick or treating at Halloween. He obviously is too cool for Halloween costumes at this point. He's at that age where it's not cool again. And it's it's, it was cool when he was a kid but he's like, he's he's 15 now, yeah? So he is like, "Urgh, fine!" And he goes into the airing covered and he just gets a sheet and he's like, "Are you happy now?" And he cuts it lies in the sheets. He doesn't care. It's that mix with a Dementor? JAZZA: Uh-hmm, and lace. ROWAN: Yeah. JAZZA: There was lots of lakes. ROWAN: Yeah. JAZZA: Yeah, ROWAN: If you just put that in your head. You've seen him, you can imagine it. JAZZA: Yeah, 100%. I also love the like beyond just the vampire and the fact that it is a bedsheet. I love the rest of the costuming in this movie, but especially our narrator and the fact that he's there with kind of like his large Bejeweled ring, long sideburns and kind of like ruffled lace cuffs as well. And as he's got kind of got his hand up to his face in shock like, "Huh?!!", you see the rough come out of his sleeve. oh, and it's quite beautiful. It's it's beautiful [24:53], I love it. And all of that coupled with like the artificial fog on the clearly papier-mâché castle. The fake IV and the fact that it's all moonlit night time. I loved it. I was here for it. I felt like I was on a movie set because I was. ROWAN: Oh yeah, I've completely agree with you there. My note that I made for this section was for a movie about lesbian vampires. We're getting a lot of this random dude. JAZZA: Who disappears for-- ROWAN: He disappears-- JAZZA: --the rest of the movie, by the way. ROWAN: --for most of the rest of the movie, he comes back at the end. JAZZA: Uh-hmm. Yeah, and comes back at the very end to ruin it with men. ROWAN: Yes, well, I mean, what we don't want to give you any spoilers right now. You're gonna get spoilers in approximately how many minutes and take hours to get to the end act. The other note I made was vampire girl is cute and blonde has very shiny hair, please drop the routine. So I was thinking-- JAZZA: I think, I think it's being, I think, I think the routine is being immortal. ROWAN: You know what? That makes sense, that checks out. I will say, and we kind of briefly talked about this before we started to record. But the the effects were really good. The there's a computation that happens at this point, and genuinely very, very good special effects, very well-practical effects. JAZZA: Yeah, like they had Madame Tussaud's head being like, cut off loads of blood everywhere. I laughed when the vampire was killed at the beginning of the movie. I'm sure people in 1970 may have been genuinely shocked. It's-- ROWAN: Mmm. JAZZA: --really difficult for me to put myself in the mindset of somebody in the 1970s. ROWAN: I don't know whether someone in the 1970s didn't I I think they understood what movies were, Jazza. Like I don't think that they were that gonna be that shocked? I think. JAZZA: It's not quite like in the 1920s when they first showed people a train covered [26:45]-- ROWAN: Yeah and they ran away. JAZZA: --and people ran out of the movie. Yeah, yeah yeah. ROWAN: No, I think that, I think that there was like, it was campy back then it was campy now. It was very much, yeah, my favorite bit of this whole big very, very beginning section before we get to the party, is the disclaimer. Because it goes from this section. It's like a good cold open if, you know, this guy's a vampire hunters. He's a eventing a sister, this is woman who's going around trying to kill people. We get some some of him explaining how to kill a vampire. And we also get her just being really really scared of a cross so you know, ohh, that bit of laws also correct. But once when the kind of credits start to roll at the beginning, there is a disclaimer that any characters or events portrayed are clearly fictitious, which definitely feels like something real vampires making a movie would say. JAZZA: You saying, are we gonna have to make keep our eye out for more evidence that these are actual vampires making actual movies? ROWAN: Is Peter Cushing a vampire? Who can tell? JAZZA: Actually, you know what? He was somehow invoke one, so-- ROWAN: He does have the vibes. JAZZA: Yeah. ROWAN: So then we get to the actual party, which is so aggressively 60s in its hair, makeup and clothing. JAZZA: Oh my god, the eyeliner? ROWAN: It's incredible. JAZZA: --the eyeliner. I was taking notes for my drag character. Like I am doing cat eyes from now on. ROWAN: I would honestly love to see you as a in drag as a lesbian vampire. I feel like that will be beautiful. JAZZA: Hey, just you weren't into Halloween this year. ROWAN: It'll happen. Also in in in, again, with the over the top style acting the over the top style props and stuff. I'm not gonna lie to you, there is no way that you could watch this film with the sound on and not know who the baddies are. Because the music, really is not subtle. There is no no subtleties to this music, you very quickly know who is you're meant to find menacing. Which they needed to do because the acting is so wooden. It's really trying to like give you something give you some indication because the characters are basically just standing around without expressions. JAZZA: And also like makeup. So you assume that the man who clearly has a inch of white stick on his face. You assume that he is the bad guy vampire, because he turns up has a flowy cape and is whiter than I am. ROWAN: Uhmm. JAZZA: Which is saying something. ROWAN: Now's a good time to point out this man. So basically the plot of the party is there's like, well, there's not much but essentially it's just an excuse for our lead lesbian vampire to turn up. And for her, we assume lesbian vampire mother to, I don't know why I said lesbian, specifically of. Mainly, we can assume she's a vampire. She might also be a lesbian, it's unconfirmed. Kind of drops her off and is like, Oh no, who will look after my daughter while I conveniently have to go away. JAZZA: Uh-hmm. ROWAN: And they're like, well, I guess we'll look after her. So this whole party is essentially setting up, that she's gonna have to stay with this family for a little while. But every so often interspersed is just the aforementioned man that Jazza has just briefly described. Who just has a very bad like white face paint makeup on and looks very Draculary and just sort of grins a lot. And he's just never explained the entire movie, it's great. JAZZA: Yeah, and every now and again, throughout the movie, there will be a shot of the lesbian vampires doing lesbian vampire things, And then that will cast away as a transition to a silhouette of the man with the white face on the on the horse. And I'm like, this movie wants us to believe that this this, I assume that, we know he is a vampire. He's confirmed to be a vampire at the end, because he smiles and has the-- ROWAN: It's canon. JAZZA: Yeah, it's canon. But he is confirmed to be a vampire. And I'm like, are we to believe that he is the one pulling the strings of everything? I think that's what we're meant to believe. In which case I kind of dislike because part of the thing that I loved about this movie was the women leads and women like the middle section of the movie is just the women kind of like conversing and trying to kill one another. Why does there have to be a male puppet, puppet master? But then I realized, or, like shoot this down Rowan, and I'm sure you will if you if you do think it is shit. ROWAN: Pew, pew. JAZZA: Pew pew. He's Dracula, right? ROWAN: Well, okay, so it's this question of like, the Dracula character is so well-known and so iconic in everything about him. Not necessarily the actual original Dracula from the book because most depictions of Dracula are nothing like him. But the image of him that has been created by Hollywood by movies and by kind of not even just urban legends. But like people's people's imagination from from movies and like physical-- JAZZA: Uh-hmm uh-hmm. ROWAN: --representations of him. So I think it will be very logical to assume that it was meant to be Dracula. But it's it may be it's just because he is so synonymous with vampires we see. If we saw any vampire that looked vaguely like old timey pale skin, we would maybe assume it was Dracula. JAZZA: But then who else is it going to be? Like, so Carmilla is our titular vampire lover. ROWAN: uh-hmm. JAZZA: And apart from Dracula, like obviously, they're originally from different universes from different books. They are-- ROWAN: Different cinematic universes. JAZZA: Yeah yeah. This this is like Marvel and DC. ROWAN: Most ambitious crossover, The Vampire Lovers. JAZZA: But if it's going to be anybody, I feel like it has to be Dracula. ROWAN: Yeah. JAZZA: Because, I feel like nobody else is gonna be calling the shots for Carmilla. ROWAN: Uhmm. JAZZA: And even arguably, you'd argue that Carmilla wouldn't be like canonically in the book. She wouldn't be taking any direction from no man. But-- ROWAN: Indeed. JAZZA: So we should probably introduce Carmilla, our main lesbian vampire. ROWAN: At this point going by Marcilla-- JAZZA: Marci-- ROWAN: --in an extremely clever, different version of her name. JAZZA: Yeah. ROWAN: It's not it was like it was a fake name, but it was just weirdly close to her actual name. JAZZA: It's a little bit too close, right? So she is played by Ingrid Pitt, who is a Polish-British Actress, and her Wikipedia page, incredibly impressive. She is a Holocaust survivor. Did you know that? ROWAN: I didn't. It's really, I mean, the Hammer Horror, I know that we're kind of taking the mick out of it. But ultimately, they it has produced some incredibly iconic, especially British Actors and Actresses. JAZZA: Uh-hmm. ROWAN: A lot of them were in like, a ton of those very specific Hammer Horror movies and like, very much became, like icons because of it. So I didn't know that about her. But we love to learn. JAZZA: Yes, she's a, she was a a a Polish Jew and was born 1937 was in a concentration camp in, in Poland. Managed to escape to the UK. And then what it was the era when all of the all of Hollywood were kind of like marrying like seven or eight times. She's had several marriages, she's not had seven or eight, she's had three marriages. But what had the whole classic thing of you know what, I'm just going to become an Actress. Moved to Hollywood, was a waitress for years until she got discovered. And I've got to say, I think that she carries the rest of the cast, I will say including, Peter Cushing. ROWAN: How dare you, sir. JAZZA: I I mean, this is one of his performances. There are other things that he's done better. But she carries this whole movie on her shoulders, I think Ingrid Pitt. I think that she is not, she's not so camp, that it makes it funny. But she really ups the energy, like throughout the film in all of the scenes and the development of her character. ROWAN: Yeah, I agree. So I I kind of made a note about this, I think that you can see within her fighting to get out is some complexity around Carmilla. To the point where I like kept thinking it was going to be discussed in some way. So what essentially happens as I mentioned at the party, we it's it's a mechanism for Carmilla and Laura to become friends and have to stay together in the house. JAZZA: Uhm. ROWAN: Laura, basically slowly starts losing her mind. She starts suffering from nightmares that she's being attacked by this giant cat. She screams a lot. Oh, boy, do they love to scream in this. JAZZA: I love it so much. ROWAN: It's I, okay, I'm going to give you another metaphor for the scream. The scream is like, the scream that you get in a high school movie. When a teenager has been punked by their younger brother. And their hair, like their hair has been dyed green. And they look directly into the mirror that is also directly into the camera and they take a deep breath and then they scream. And then the camera zooms out, like to the house and into the like country and then a load of-- JAZZA: Yeah, yeah yeah. ROWAN: --birds like flutter out of trees. That's the vibe-- JAZZA: Yeah. ROWAN: --from every scream and there's multiple in this particular movie. JAZZA: Well I love Rowan is that we're very quickly realizing that this season of recording review podcasts, all of your references are going to be to team trash moments. Like that's-- ROWAN: Yeah, the best of all genres. Other than horror, but I know that you can't handle that, obviously. So I decided to [35:37]-- JAZZA: [35:37] lead by you. ROWAN: So yeah, this is very kind of classic Gothic idea of like, slowly trying to figure out like, what's real? What's not real? Did I might actually being attacked? This is a nightmare. Has someone caused me to feel this way? And while this is happening, we get this very intense kind of friendship going on between these two women. I think there's literally an an exchange or one of them says I shall die when you leave. And the other is like, I shall never leave you. And then they do kissy kiss, kiss kiss. JAZZA: Uh-hmm. ROWAN: But what's also really interesting to me, which I actually feel like I still see a lot in lesbian movies is that there is no actual relationship development. Which makes sense in this film, because it's like supernatural allure, right? It's like her being like, I'm just this lesbian vampire. And so you're gonna fall for me, even though we literally have never had a conversation properly. Like, we never see that on screen. But I often see that to my mind, at least in lesbian movies. Especially the like historic lesbian movies, where they just really love to bank on the idea of like the repressed women trope. And so they're like, we don't have to have them have conversations and talk about things because they've repressed, right? They just sort of inexplicably now want to kiss. There's no build up and nothing and no discussions. And so I was like, at least here it makes sense. Canonically with the idea of her having this like sexual allure to her victims. JAZZA: Yeah, it kind of does. I I I will, and this is something that people smarter than me have talked about, about Carmilla the original text from the 1800s. Where she juxtaposes with a character like Dracula, because Carmilla actually seems to genuinely fall in love with the people that she ends up killing, alternative vampires. And I felt like Pitt's depiction of the, she was really good at kind of like, I believed that she really did care for these young women that she ended up, spoiler, kills. ROWAN: Uhm. Yeah, completely agree. There's these, there are just these moments where she's the character on her own like, and she suddenly has this look of like, deep grief or deep sadness or deep like confliction in her. And I'm like, oh, if this wasn't a Hammer Horror, like I, this same story could be played out. And we really could have dug into the idea of like, I need to do this to survive, or like I cannot, this is what I was meant to do. Like, I've been living for hundreds of years. And this is what's always happened. But this is like, mentally horrific. And I feel like there's some interesting like vampire media that does explore this idea of like, what do you do if you just keep on living? And you have to hurt people in order to survive, like, what does that look like? That and see, or-- JAZZA: Uh-hmm. ROWAN: --seeing that conflict of someone who has fallen for someone for that, for real for the first time. That previously it hadn't been things like, these things are really interesting to explore, not where this film is going. Another spoiler alert gang, there there is no complex comes, the biggest complexity is this very specific look that we have interpreted from an actress who was not given anything else in the script to work with. JAZZA: Yeah. Shall we just say this up before? Up the [38:37]-- ROWAN: We shout. JAZZA: --out for that. The script is not this movie's strong point. ROWAN: Uhm. Yeah, if you couldn't have told that already. I feel like we've really hinted quite heavily at it, so far. JAZZA: Yes. ROWAN: But yeah, so the end of this first section is essentially, Laura is bitten. She has these fang bites on her. She she dies, and Marcilla is like, Bye!!! JAZZA: Yeah, disappears. ROWAN: I'm out of here, baby. JAZZA: Uh-hmm. ROWAN: And so we get to our second section. [39:04] [Transition Music] JAZZA: So that first section has basically, it's the bullet point version of what's going to happen next with a new girl, essentially. ROWAN: Uh-hmm. JAZZA: That's what going to happen-- ROWAN: Yes, that's exactly. That's exactly it. JAZZA: Like this is what Carmilla does. She is parachuted in convolutedly to be, to befriend a young woman in a manor house. And then gradually over time, kills her, while terrorizing the local peasantry as well. Because every now and again we'll have like a peasant washer woman running through the forest. Who then stumbles falls and then screams and does the as you said, that [scream] kind of moment. ROWAN: Wonderful impression. Yes. JAZZA: Thank you. I'm conscious of of peeking the mic. Otherwise, I would delete, you know, I [39:52]-- ROWAN: Oh, yeah. No, I know you would. So this one we get a little more titillation, though. Like we functionally you're right, it's exactly the same story. But we do get a little more titillation. So we have like Emma comes into Carmilla's room. Welcome in there is just naked in the bath, and just has a casual conversation about-- JAZZA: Uh-hmm. ROWAN: --the dresses that they're going to wear and Carmilla's like, you should take everything off for you try on this dress, because it ruins the shape to have underwear on. And she's like, oh, okay, like there's literally no reason for the scene apart from for the audience have like this kind of sex and fear and horror and campaign nudity and like all this stuff coming together in in the way that it's often does. So even at that point, I was like, oh, this is ridiculous. And then they start chasing each other around while topless in, what I genuinely think might be the most unconvincing chase scene in all of cinema. JAZZA: It's kind of like when you see if the like, in in maybe a more modern movie where two women have been asked to, do a pillow fight and and it's sexy. Just trust me, it's sexy. All the way through this second conquest of Carmilla of Emma's character who is this the wide idiot, frankly. ROWAN: Yeah, she does have a type doesn't she? JAZZA: Yeah yeah. Oh my God, I didn't even think of it like that. But yeah yeah, though I did it. But she like I I I found myself questioning all the way through kind of like this moment of undressing and Ooh, tits or bear ass, you know. I don't want and can you answer this for me? Is this sexy? ROWAN: Well as a sexual lesbian, Jazza, I don't really, I I'm both highly qualified and utterly unqualified to answer that question-- JAZZA: Which is-- ROWAN: --no, not in my mind. But I think as well it's it's it's that I think that the sexiness with this release, I don't know maybe there's probably some lesbians that are just like, yes, tits. But I think, like, we have them, we know what they look like. So it's kind of like, what did someone else I feel like it's the connection that that-- JAZZA: Made that that logic. I just, I just want to put this out there that logic does not-- ROWAN: Not, no, that's fair enough. JAZZA: Yeah. ROWAN: But it is this thing of like, there is literally no feeling of connection between them during that chase scene. Like, I think there are other bits where there's more like when they're doing this sort of hypnotizes seductressy bit that like, feels like they're-- JAZZA: Uh-hmm. ROWAN: --slightly monstering chemistry. But like, that scene where they're chasing each other around could not have been-- JAZZA: Less sexy. ROWAN: --less sexy, if it tried like it just in an embarrassing kind of way that's like, Oh, God, I guess I'm watching this now, this is happening. Because I do think as well, it is like, it is very funny to me, because I think immediately just reminds me of the super, the super cliche to the point where it's almost become a meme thing that happens with gay male characters in movies. And in porn as well, where they, they kind of have a like, they're sort of play fighting, and then suddenly, it's like, oh, no, now we are on top of each other and it is sexual. JAZZA: Uh-huh. ROWAN: Like-- JAZZA: CRGBF episode. ROWAN: Yeah, it's like it's it's such a trope. And it's so funny that it kind of like this was like, even less convincing than those things. I was really interested to see, because this was on so many sort of, like, you know, classic queer movie lists. But typically movies that are this old, you don't really have the actual canonical confirmation in any way. And you definitely do in this movie, like they, they really have it up and although it does fall into the trope, we'll talk about in a second about like, kind of the evil lesbian trope. It's supernatural and over the top and kind of didn't mind it in that way. But yeah, once again, Emma starts having nightmares. Start screaming, everyone else kind of goes away on like, the day goes away on business. She has a suitor, but he's not you know, it's it's in the olden times. So he doesn't really come-- JAZZA: Uh-hmm, uh-hmm. ROWAN: --around all the time. He just occasionally, he'll turn up. But we'll be do have it's a little bit different is the kind of Governess character-- JAZZA: Yeah. ROWAN: --like Mme. Perrodot, who's kind of like becomes this accomplice to Carmilla. Because she's just seducing everyone. JAZZA: I love Carmilla and The Governess. And I want them to go away and have a home with the what was the cat's name? Gustav. ROWAN: Oh, yeah, you know what-- JAZZA: I want to-- ROWAN: --you're right. JAZZA: --go move to a cottage in the Romanian countryside and just live with Gustav. Because, uhm, so as well as seducing Emma, Carmilla begins seducing and killing all of the peasantry around the mansion. Carmilla begins to seduce The Governess. And that is when it does get sexy. And I was like, oh, all of a sudden there actually feels like there is chemistry between these two women. And I thought that Carmilla had turned The Governess into a vampire? But it turns out that she doesn't that The Governess is just have familia and just really fancy is the pants off of Carmilla. ROWAN: Uh-hmm. JAZZA: And to be fair with an ass like that. ROWAN: I mean, who can blame her? JAZZA: Mmm. ROWAN: But yeah, that's an interesting thing here. Again, I'll come back to when we talk about lesbian trips versus exchange that happens between Emma and Carmilla about, you know, I love you. I don't want anyone taking you away from me and Emma being like, we'll always be friends. She's like, no, it's not the same thing, it's different. I want you to love me for all your life. Like it's very much the idea of like Carmilla is the predatory, kind of obsessive like actual lesbian. And then you have this like poor innocent Emma who didn't didn't understand what was happening. Like-- JAZZA: Uh-hmm. ROWAN: --she didn't know that that was what was going on in the mind of this perverted lesbian vampire. JAZZA: I sometimes also get the the feeling that Carmilla was a bit of a like the lesbian version of a nagging dude, bro. Like she keeps on telling, telling Emma there's, ahh you talk such nonsense. Like, getting really defensive about the way that she feels about funerals, for example. ROWAN: Oh, bloody he hates funerals. JAZZA: Completely gaslights, Emma about like the bite marks on her being from a brooch and not from anything else. ROWAN: Yeah, truly Carmilla is the gaslight, gatekeeper, girlboss of all, of all [46:00]-- JAZZA: That is, that is the classification that we needed. Thank you very much, Rowan, I appreciate it. ROWAN: I don't know if you had anything else to say about this section. Cuz I think the third section is like the boys are back in town. JAZZA: Oh, I called the third section. Lesbian Vampire Killers. ROWAN: Oh, yeah. You know what, that also works very well. [46:16] [Transition Music] ROWAN: This is essentially when all of the guys and tada like, hey, I don't know whether you've noticed how every woman is dying in the local area by having their blood drained. But I think there may be foul play at work. JAZZA: Uh-hmm. Can I just say the men, they have been practically no men having speaking parts in this movie, for like a good 50% of the middle part of it. The first 25% is Carmilla and the aftermath party. And then we have 50% of just women. seducing one another and being hot. And-- ROWAN: And Gustav, the cat. JAZZA: --and, and Gustav, the cat, of course. So I won't forget Gustav, the cat. And then these men come in. And I'll be completely honest, I forgotten who most of them were. ROWAN: Oh, yeah, I fully could not remember any of these men were. JAZZA: And what their relationships were with the women previously. So it is all of the aggrieved men who have been affected by cumulus murdering. So it is the father of Laura who she killed in act one. It is the suitor of Emma, who-- ROWAN: Uh-hmm. JAZZA: --at this point is going through the stages of death as well. And also the father of Emma as well, who has just come back from business. ROWAN: Ooh, and surprised that guy from the beginning who who was narrating. JAZZA: Oh, sure, the guy of the sideburns. ROWAN: Yeah. JAZZA: [47:52] caps. ROWAN: [47:52] there's also just randomly like, there's a Doctor, there's a butler, there's a landlord. JAZZA: Yeah, all of these men that, I'll be honest movie I didn't I don't care about and I feel like it wanted us to root for the men because they're the ones who are like injustice. And I was like, now I know that Carmilla is going around and killing all of these doe wide dumb women. But I'm on her side, I'll be completely honest. And I kind of want the men to leave them alone so that they can have their happy lesbian life with The Governess and Gustav. ROWAN: Yeah. And instead, the men keep trying to bring garlic flowers into their room, which is honestly-- JAZZA: [48:27] ROWAN: --very rude. JAZZA: Yeah, so one of the workers in the mansion, Mr. Venton, is supposed to be a, no, he's not really a hero. Basically, I immediately dislike him because we introduced him as he slaps the ass of a bar wench in the peasant village. He then decides, oh, yeah, definitely everything that's happening to Emma is vampiric in nature. He reckons the vampire is The Governess, actually, rather than Carmilla. And then starts talking with the landlord of the local pub, and getting advice and so brings in garlic flowers to Emma's bedroom, to try and ward off the vampires and causing a Doctor who also as well as encouraging the use of these flowers, brings in a a crucifix and puts it around Emma's neck. Which makes it impossible for both Carmilla and for The Governess to go into the womb and to complete the killing of our delight [49:33] ROWAN: Yeah. Which ultimately, yeah, great plan to be honest, it did work. They pretty foolproof. JAZZA: Yeah, it was pretty good until Venton get seduced by Carmilla and just goes, you know what, all I want to do is make out with you and I'm going to like murder this girl for it. And you know what? I was happy to see him die at the hands of Carmilla, good for her. ROWAN: And then she's also like, ohh, going to kill the Doctor and all, like just the though we have a nice scene when the Doctor's Horse get super spooked. And she somehow, I guess is teleported there. Because she never really seems to leave the house and yet she's always off body killing people. So yeah she's, she's like you know what? We, enough of this. JAZZA: Uh-hmm. ROWAN: No thank you. So kind of simultaneously while all of the the lads are going on a little road trip to her old family castle to try and-- JAZZA: Yeah, where she's buried. ROWAN: Yeah. JAZZA: Yeah. ROWAN: She's like Oop, time for a kidnap and decides to essentially kidnap Emma, and in the process dump The Governess. JAZZA: Can I just say this just cemented, cemented Carmilla was an, as the absolute fuck boy if this movie, ROWAN: You're, you know what? You're absolutely right. She is-- JAZZA: Like-- ROWAN: --she is the fuck boy-- JAZZA: --literally-- ROWAN: --of this movie. JAZZA: --The Governess is there on the floor, begging, take me with you. She loves you, she wants to create that life with Gustav. ROWAN: She wants the cottage called dream with the cat-- JAZZA: [50:58] of this-- ROWAN: --and, in the woods, in Romanian. JAZZA: Who knew in the 1970s that this was going to pave the way for the Cottagecore Movement and-- ROWAN: I know, right. JAZZA: --Lesbian Cottagecore Movement. ROWAN: That's the true history of it. And then there's so much screaming again, classic. Because she decides to to feed on The Governess and-- JAZZA: Yeah. ROWAN: --maybe shouldn't have done that in front of Emma. If she wanted Emma-- JAZZA: Uh-hmm. ROWAN: --to come away with her. But you know she did and that's on her. So all the screaming again. And then the suitor is here to save the day, whose name is Carl. Which-- JAZZA: Didn't know it is, no, I completely missed that. What? That's very funny-- ROWAN: It's Carl, yeah. Carl's here to save the day and so Carmilla-- JAZZA: Carl.. ROWAN: --looks like, ohh, well, I guess a bit of skip town. This is too much for me, and then runs back to the castle. Which obviously we as the audience know is filled with the lads who are up to no good. JAZZA: The Lesbian Vampire Killer. ROWAN: Yeah. The Lesbian Vampire Killer, the lads. And so yeah, she just runs back to the castle, has a little nap. And then while she's napping, doesn't notice them all come around her coffin and and stab her in the heart. JAZZA: I can I just say they don't, she doesn't notice them. Finding her coffin, moving a massive, kind of like slate off of her coffin. Carrying her coffin into the chapel, opening the coffin, then moving her dress down so that expose his, her chest and then placing the stake on her breast so that they can actually stub her. She doesn't notice any of that, she's fast asleep, bless her. ROWAN: She's hibernating, [52:22] we nap and she deserves it. JAZZA: Very cute. This is all happening during the night as well. And that's when she's to be awake? ROWAN: Hmm, doing question is fine. She's she's hibernating. JAZZA: And then they once again they stab her through the chest. She is then decapitated, which again, the physical effects of this movie. We're not what I was expecting for 1970, that is very nice. ROWAN: That's very good. JAZZA: Have we gone backwards? ROWAN: Possibly, I I genuinely feel like the special effects of Jurassic Park hold up better than the special effects of Jurassic World. So, yes, you're you're correct. The audience of the goodies. JAZZA: I am with you. ROWAN: I really enjoyed that they were like yeah, Peter Cushing can have the killing blow. He's a he's the star of this, is no real connection to a lot of what's going on here but sure. And then at the end come in his portrait on the wall has changed to be all vampire instead of all hot like she was before. JAZZA: Very doing great. ROWAN: Yeah, it's great. It was it was very much like Chekhov's decapitation. Because they did the guy at the very beginning was like, the only way you can kill them as if you decapitate them. And it's like, oh, I wonder if that will come back later on. It's like, a plot point. And then yeah, that was the end of the movie we had, we have experienced, The Vampire Lovers. JAZZA: Uh-hmm, uh-hmm. Rowan did you [53:36], how how was this, how was this experience for you? Because obviously this isn't what you wanted. You wanted quote unquote, "real horror". ROWAN: So here's the thing. JAZZA: Mmm, go! ROWAN: I will admit, when we were coming up with these movies, and we and you decided that we were going to watch The Vampire Lovers, I was worried. JAZZA: Can I just say, I rolled a dice when decided this. ROWAN: Yeah, you did annoyingly. JAZZA: So it wasn't me that decided it was the dice. ROWAN: The dice, it was the thing. I would admit, the time I was a bit like, disappointed because I like, no that, I don't know if I'm that interested in this or whatever. But then I did watch the movie. And I agree with my initial assessment, I was so bored. This was such a boring movie. JAZZA: I I couldn't disagree with you more. ROWAN: Ohhh, God. JAZZA: I loved it, I loved it so much. ROWAN: I've could have predicted that though. I feel like we've had, we've disagreed on movies before in this podcast. And I think it's just you enjoy trash. JAZZA: This isn't, no no-- ROWAN: Like, and not that that's not even meant to be me. Like, like, taking a dig at you. I'm like you genuinely do appreciate sort of like campy, trashy, like low budget stuff. I think more than I do. JAZZA: Yes. Yeah. No, I'm with you. That is my vibe. That is my my modus operandi. But also I will say, all the way through, I was just fascinated that a movie like this was out in 1970. And I was also just captivated by all of the women. Either Ingrid Pitt, really does carry this full movie, she was absolutely phenomenal throughout the whole thing. But then every single woman is just absolutely stunning. And I don't understand why they're hanging around with all of these mediocre men. I wanted it to just be the women living their cortical fantasy. And I was so sucked in to their beauty and like some of their sexy flirting. I was super into The Governess, and all of that shit. I genuinely was hooked to this movie. I I really enjoyed the ride, I thought it was great. I will say some of that is based on kind of like, oh, isn't this an interesting depiction of like, the end of the height of the Hammer Horror Movement, and of the type of movie that was out at the time and stuff like that. ROWAN: What a nerd. JAZZA: But I have a--I had a really nice time, I'd recommend it. ROWAN: Yeah, I also I guess it appreciated it on that more intellectual level of like, mmm, this is I was I was like, at the very least, there's stuff that we can say about it. In the same way as I did predict this is what was going to happen. That like when you do an experiment in science class, really, I just keep doing high school metaphors. And it's not even on purpose. And when you do an experiment in science class, and it goes horribly wrong, and all of your results are wrong. You're like, well, at least I have something to write in my evaluation, even if the results and the conclusion of the terrible. I'll have, I'll basically just be able to, like, absolutely destroyed myself by being like me from 10 minutes ago, when I did this experiment is ridiculous, and doesn't know what she was doing and absolute fool. Or here all the things she did wrong. JAZZA: And you're and you'll get really good marks for being reflective. ROWAN: Yeah, exactly. You really reflective. And I kind of feel like this is the vibe of like, well, I don't enjoy it. But there's a lot we can say about it. So I guess this is the section where we talk about a little bit more context specific around Queer Movies, lesbian vampires, they're a thing. So this is not, this very much was part of a tradition. Like you talked about Carmilla before. And this is a tradition that has very much been with us for a long time, for a number of reasons. So one, as we talked about before, the vampire genre ties in a lot to sex and sexuality. And it only makes sense that if you're going to talk about perversion and sexuality that lesbians come up, you know, it's a it's just how we do. So I think also the fact that there is a, there is a riskier a danger, and alert sexuality element of vampires. And so if you're going to pick a sexuality to titillate the assumed to be male audience. With a bit of taboo, with a bit of danger, with a lot of titties, the lesbians will do it for you. So this is very much yeah, old, old trope, which has continued on through the decades. And this was absolutely no exception and actually was like a very noted example of it that a lot of people will talk about. I think it was very interesting that, when you look at the Wikipedia article for this movie, it gives you, often Wikipedia articles will tell you like what the rotten score is with critics. JAZZA: Uhm. ROWAN: And the note that they've made of it being certified rotten. I looked at the citation, and it was from 2013. It is now absolutely not certified rotten, the critic score is 71. And the audience score is 60. So it kind of has gotten more critical clout as a cult classic, than sort of a good movie at the time getting good reviews. It's very much had basically the reaction that we sort of had to at of, there is something about the context of it and something about its sort of cult classic status, which has, I think, elevate it in in subsequent reviews. JAZZA: Is it, I'm sensing a mirroring of what we saw with Jennifer's Body-- ROWAN: Hmm. JAZZA: --a little bit. ROWAN: You are not wrong, you're absolutely not wrong. There is this idea of the as I kind of mentioned earlier, corrupting lesbian force, right? So you would often have not just in like supernatural ways in in more realistic dramas around these decades, especially within the Hays Code or around it, of the experienced, maybe older sexual lesbian, and the young innocent virgin who didn't really understand what was going on and couldn't be blamed and was sucked in but just needed to be kind of taken out of this woman's [59:23] and given to a nice good man and that would kind of cheer her like this very much is something that is a big, big part of the conceptualization people had of lesbians of what what that relationship looks like. And I think queer people in general was like, the predator, right? So you had a lot of in our history, we have a lot of stuff where, you know, queer people shouldn't be teachers because they shouldn't be around young people. Ridiculous, obviously. And then more recently, we have the sort of trans bathroom panic stuff around the idea that old trans people shouldn't be trusted with our children in bathrooms like just completely ridiculous. But absolutely ties into this idea of like the evil lesbian trope, which plays out so much, over over time, over over this genre. And if you're being interpreting it in maybe a little bit more of a generous way, or if you wanted to subvert it, then you might look at how becoming a vampire is sort of as a symbol of no longer being tied to sort of puritanical ideas of sex and sexuality. And it being a very freeing experience and that that kind of tying into queerness like, I definitely think there's room for that interpretation. In like more modern explorations of lesbian vampires. I'd be really interested to see stuff like that. But yeah, there's a 1936 film Dracula's Daughter. JAZZA: Yeah. ROWAN: Which has a lot of lesbian subtext. And that was coming to dawn in The Celluloid Closet, the amazing documentary about LGBT Cinema, Lesbian Vampire Killers, obviously. JAZZA: The 1936 Dracula's Daughter was actually a victim of the Hays Code. So it was stopped from even being filmed as being explicitly queer before they started actual production. And it's an awful lot of like fade to black. But that could have beaten this movie, really. This is kind of like a a reimagining of it in in certain ways, just with more text. ROWAN: Indeed, Lesbian Vampire Killers, obviously, the James Corden movie. Even Doctor Who, there's like this episode: The Vampires of Venice, where like, technically, they aren't vampires. They're like, they basically are like fish vampires. And this matriarch--it's like, this matriarchal called cult that like, gaggle-- JAZZA: Is Doctor Who I'm sure it makes sense [1:01:33]-- ROWAN: And, yeah, it's like, she gathers together this like, cult of brainwashed women and feeds on them. And you're like, hmm, these implications feel very pointed. Because this-- JAZZA: Yeah. ROWAN: --is such an actual thing. There's-- JAZZA: I'm also thinking about [1:01:47] right? ROWAN: I was gonna say as well, yeah-- JAZZA: I'm on it, yeah. ROWAN: So do you wanna, do you wanna to talk a bit about bit? It's like, I guess a more modern example of this. JAZZA: Yeah, is a is a very similar thing. So basically, somebody young moves to L.A. gets bit and basically joins, like a a lesbian vampire street gang who go around killing men, because men are trash is broadly the the context of the movie, right? ROWAN: Yeah. And and really interestingly, it's one of those movies where you have a trans protagonist as well as like-- JAZZA: Yeah yeah yeah. ROWAN: --queer trans protagonist. JAZZA: Uh-hmm. ROWAN: So yeah, that's some interesting, I guess, context of the Lesbian Vampire. Like this is not an isolated incident. Like when we're talking about horror as a genre and queer horror. the Lesbian Vampire is an absolutely quintessential figure. And this film is for all of its faults that we pointed out, [1:02:32] in the case of Jazza is a really, really important to that kind of element of queer history. Did you have any, anything to add around queer movie history around horror? JAZZA: Well, there's kind of less on the the movie side of things. But I wanted to talk about the source text a little bit. Which is the reason that we get to see kind of like such an explicitly-- ROWAN: Uhmm. JAZZA: --queer movie in 1970. So Carmilla, was released in 1872, by the Irish Novelist, Sheridan Le Fanu. Who is a man, unfortunately-- ROWAN: Eiww.. JAZZA: --the woman showed in that [1:03:07], and I'm, I'm sure he was I in predated Dracula by like, a quarter of a century. And was really, it's quite difficult to find examples of how it was received back in the 1800s. But is a really, nowadays we definitely call it progressive, because when you look at it, compared to a lot of other contemporary tech for the time. The women in Carmilla, are very much seen as equals, if not superior to men. Which we also see in this reimagining in 1970. And this really did, it was significant because of the juxtaposition that we had between what kind of like a Victorian man was supposed to be. He was supposed to be, if you think of Mr. Banks, Mr. Banks is the idea of what like a Victorian Management to be. Head of the household, making sure that kids are beautiful and clothed. The wife doesn't have to work and is kind of like this, this upstanding part of society. But the men constantly get tricked by the women. Both Carmilla and her familiars throughout the novel. And for that reason, it's very, very significant. Also, the fact that she is, like Carmilla as a as a book character also embodies a lot of like the classic queer tropes that we see in horror as well. The idea of living a double life coming to life and being your real self during the night time, being a misunderstood monster. The fact that she really seems to genuinely love her victims. And he's pained whenever she actually ends up murdering them. And like she really, I think in another universe, rather than Dracula, we would have Carmilla it's kind of like the archetype of what a vampire is. But even though Jack Lew is clearly kind of like the dawn, Carmilla has been reimagined in this movie. But also, there were the iterations of Dracula's Daughter that definitely draw inspiration from the Carmilla book. There are iterations of her throughout kind of like movies and TV shows. And she is the final boss of quite a lot of vampire and Castlevania inspired video games and stuff like that. But can I tell you, Rowan-- ROWAN: Uh-hmm. JAZZA: --what my favorite reimagining of the Carmilla story is? ROWAN: Please do. JAZZA: So in 2014, there was a web series called Carmilla, that was told in the style of a lonely girl 15, flog of, oh, I'm a journalism student doing flogs about kind of like this mysterious stuff that's happening in the dorm of this Austrian University. I am here trying to figure out why my roommate has gone missing. And this new girl called Carmilla has come into my dorm room, and she keeps on bringing back girls and is seducing me and they go on this three season rump all told from kind of like the single camera perspective in classic web series style. They did four seasons of this, technically, and then ended up creating a movie, which was called Carmilla the movie inspired. But this iteration not only has stolen my heart, I've watched about an hour of the first season already, and I've researched in my research today. But it won a butt ton of awards for kind of like being outstanding storytelling in the mid 2018s as well. ROWAN: Jazza. JAZZA: Uhm. ROWAN: Jazza Jazza Jazza. JAZZA: Yeah? ROWAN: So bold of you to assume that I, a lesbian. Have not heard of the Carmilla web series. Probably the most well-known like lesbian fandom on the internet. This is amazing that you have found this as like a novelty, like a first time thing-- JAZZA: I love-- ROWAN: --this is, this is like, this is web series. I don't know if you've ever heard of it. It's called Carmilla. It's like-- JAZZA: Is this like me saying have have you like anime? Have you heard of Evangelion? Is it, is it like that kind of vibe? Is that the wrong reference to use-- ROWAN: Wrong reference to use to me, but I-- JAZZA: [1:07:33] ROWAN: --appreciate it anyway. Yes, this is like a very well-known web series. JAZZA: I'd never heard of it before. And I'm in love and this is going to be the rest of my weekend is watching this. ROWAN: I love that for you. Please update me as to how you feel about it. JAZZA: Oh, I will. Have you seen the movie as well? What's the movie like? ROWAN: I haven't seen the movie, no, I I-- JAZZA: Maybe maybe that's a future episode. ROWAN: I hate, I hate to, I hate to admit this after I just dragged you so hard for not knowing that this was like a thing. I haven't actually watched it. But it's that, it's like ghosty thing of like, if you were a lesbian online, you know about the Carmilla web series. JAZZA: Got it. ROWAN: That yeah, you're right. did win a lot of awards. JAZZA: I hate to ruin things for you, Rowan. But I this may be a come as a shock to you, but I am not a lesbian online. ROWAN: What? JAZZA: I'm so sorry. ROWAN: What? How dare you? But yeah, this is uhh, I'm glad to be called a bit of context. I feel like there's, yeah, a lot to say about this movie and a lot to kind of appreciate about it, that isn't the movie. Anyway, shall we get, with that damning report from Rowan, shall we have a little, shall we have a look at like how we would both rate it. [1:08:38] [Transition Music] ROWAN: The next rating that we like to give is the colors of the rainbow. So this is how many colors of the rainbow flag would would we give it? And you know what? We'll also do which colors. JAZZA: Yeah, yeah, I'm done for that. And so we're going with the the six bars. So red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and of course, purple. ROWAN: I'm gonna give it two out of six. It was a two out of six film for me. JAZZA: I'll be realized that, I I thought that that was that's more than I was expecting to be [1:09:17] ROWAN: I think that the other ba--one of the bars. Okay, let's go with one of the bars is red, obviously, that can be the bar for the film itself. And then I'll give it-- JAZZA: I feel like whenever there is a vampire in a movie, it has to be given. ROWAN: Obviously. And then the second one I'll do purple, but it's more because of its kind of contribution to the queer candidate in general than like a particular enjoyment of the film itself. JAZZA: Uhm. ROWAN: So, I'm giving it two of six, red and purple. How about you? JAZZA: Okay, so I haven't thought about this very much. And so I'm just going to start talking and see what happens. So I want to give it three to four bars. ROWAN: Okay. JAZZA: Which, again, I'm a generous man, what can I say? ROWAN: Okay, okay. JAZZA: The first bar, red-- ROWAN & JAZZA: Obviously. ROWAN: Yeah. JAZZA: Passion, life, sex-- ROWAN: Blood. JAZZA: --it is the color of Carmilla's dress, her crown, that pendant that gives away where she's sleeping under the chapel. ROWAN: All of those things. JAZZA: All of those things. The second one I'm going to give is, green, nature. Just like that forest there that that peasant girl-- ROWAN: Mmm. JAZZA: --tripped over in, rolled over and scream. ROWAN: Yeah, like good stuff. The cat, in nature-- JAZZA: This [1:10:26] the cat, fame-- ROWAN: Cottagecore. JAZZA: --natural. Yeah, exactly. I'm gonna go with spirit, which is purple. ROWAN: Uh-hmm. JAZZA: And that is because there was lots of, all they tried. ROWAN: They had some, they have a spirit and that's what's important. It's the thought that counts. JAZZA: Exactly. And then the fourth one I'm going to give is, is blue because of serenity. But I am going to interpret serenity as not giving a fuck. ROWAN: Ahhh. JAZZA: And Carmilla is there to break some hearts. ROWAN: Uh-hmm. JAZZA: She is the fuck boy of this movie. ROWAN: Yeah. You're right. JAZZA: And she, when The Governess is there begging her to take her with her. Carmilla gives how many fucks? ROWAN: There, it's very, it very much has the energy of that mean. That's like, The Governess is like, I'll die without you. And Carmilla is like, then perish. JAZZA: Yes, 100%. ROWAN: Does not care whatsoever. JAZZA: Uh-hmm. Look at us, well done. [1:11:30] [Outro] ROWAN: Thank you so much for listening. You can follow us on Twitter to keep up to date with everything podcast related. JAZZA: If you feel entertained, please do think about supporting us over on Patreon. Our patreons really do allow us to put in the hours of research and recording that goes into these episodes. So sincerely, thank you. One of our perks on Patreon is a queer movie watch along every last Saturday of the month, exclusively for our patreons hosted on our Discord. Gay fun, really is had by all, so come join us. ROWAN: The Queer Movie Podcast is edited by Julia Schifini. We're also part of Multitude Productions, so make sure you check out all of our other awesome podcasts full of both fun and frivolity. JAZZA: Make sure you follow and subscribe to this hear podcast, so that you are primed for our next episode. Thank you very much, my darlin's, you will hear us very soon. [1:12:23] ROWAN: A byie! Transcriptionist: Vernon Bryann Casil Editor: Krizia Marrie Casil