Is Slow Business More Humane?
In this new episode titled "Is Slow Business More Humane," we discover the world of slow business with Andy Mort, a Slow Business Coach, songwriter, and sound artist. This conversation challenges the prevalent "faster, more efficient" mentality in today's business world, offering a refreshing perspective on how entrepreneurs can incorporate spaciousness and human connection into their work. It’s the first of a series ‘Sarah & Friends discussing Business Like We’re Human topics' So in this first episode of the series of ‘Sarah & Friends discussing Business Like We’re Human topics' we discussed: How Andy became a Slow Business Coach The relationship between inner peace, slowness, and its impact on clients and the community. The connection between spaciousness, innovation, and creativity in business. The contrast between the slow approach and the prevalent "faster, more efficient" mentality in business. The importance of human connection in business interactions, especially in the context of sales and client relationships. Practical first steps for entrepreneurs to incorporate more spaciousness in their life and business. and so much more -- Is Slow Business More Humane? 1 00:00:01.830 --> 00:00:07.590 Sarah Santacroce: Andy. It's so good to see you again and have you on the humane marketing podcast welcome back. 2 00:00:07.590 --> 00:00:12.940 Andy Mort: Thank you so much. It is lovely to be with you again, Sarah. I love talking to you so. 3 00:00:12.940 --> 00:00:13.320 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah. 4 00:00:13.320 --> 00:00:14.399 Andy Mort: About this? Yeah. 5 00:00:14.400 --> 00:00:24.780 Sarah Santacroce: We always have great and deep conversations, and so I couldn't think of a better person than you to talk about this concept of 6 00:00:24.930 --> 00:00:33.970 Sarah Santacroce: slowing things down, and the question whether a slow business is a humane business and what all of that involves. So 7 00:00:34.290 --> 00:00:52.720 Sarah Santacroce: it's good to have you here. Why don't you explain a little bit how you got into this concept of being a slow business coach? It's been a few years now. And yeah, how has this evolved for you? And how does it 8 00:00:52.930 --> 00:00:59.850 Sarah Santacroce: feel in in your business? And how do people react to it? So explain it a little bit. 9 00:00:59.850 --> 00:01:03.999 Andy Mort: Yeah, yeah, sure. I mean, it's something that I didn't 10 00:01:04.129 --> 00:01:10.419 Andy Mort: necessarily set out to to do or to be. It's just something that has evolved really 11 00:01:11.190 --> 00:01:14.769 Andy Mort: over time of like working with people. And I've always worked with 12 00:01:15.230 --> 00:01:20.740 Andy Mort: introverted and highly sensitive people. So those who. 13 00:01:21.570 --> 00:01:28.660 Andy Mort: I guess, find the the pace of modern life, maybe a bit overstimulating at times. 14 00:01:28.840 --> 00:01:33.769 Andy Mort: And so there's been like this necessity of of slowness 15 00:01:34.390 --> 00:01:38.709 Andy Mort: for the sake of people's nervous systems. And you know, just being able to 16 00:01:39.370 --> 00:01:43.999 Andy Mort: focus and get clear on. You know what's important and what isn't, and all of that kind of thing. 17 00:01:44.280 --> 00:01:50.250 Andy Mort: But also there's been this, I guess increasing awareness in me that this is really 18 00:01:50.480 --> 00:01:53.650 Andy Mort: bad for all of us, and this whole mentality of. 19 00:01:53.800 --> 00:02:00.690 Andy Mort: you know, move fast and break things which has come from this sort of tech world and 20 00:02:01.290 --> 00:02:08.120 Andy Mort: has a is an appropriate tool in many situations in that world. But it, it seems to have 21 00:02:08.840 --> 00:02:16.460 Andy Mort: kind of permeated everything. And so there's this very reactive energy that I just feel in the world 22 00:02:16.680 --> 00:02:25.229 Andy Mort: around me. And that kind of comes into me. And it's in people. And this needs to be productive. And all of these words that you know you 23 00:02:25.490 --> 00:02:31.149 Andy Mort: obviously use a lot. And you're sort of rebelling against in many ways in what you do. 24 00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:40.479 Andy Mort: yeah. And so I guess what I do is is help people identify, you know. Where is that energy 25 00:02:40.580 --> 00:02:45.230 Andy Mort: taking me away from what I want to be doing and who I am, and 26 00:02:45.550 --> 00:02:52.050 Andy Mort: the impact that I might want to have with my work or in my family in my relationship. 27 00:02:52.310 --> 00:02:59.669 Andy Mort: whatever it might be. And then to yeah, put into practice ways of 28 00:03:02.330 --> 00:03:06.270 Andy Mort: yeah, slowing, slowing down and making space 29 00:03:06.660 --> 00:03:08.639 Andy Mort: for the important things, and to 30 00:03:08.930 --> 00:03:20.069 Andy Mort: make space to do the things that matter more slowly as well. And this, yeah, this twist on the old productivity thing of like do more in less time. I think I love the idea of 31 00:03:21.230 --> 00:03:26.469 Andy Mort: doing doing less more slowly, because it allows you to go 32 00:03:26.800 --> 00:03:28.559 Andy Mort: deep. And it allows you to. 33 00:03:28.970 --> 00:03:30.519 Andy Mort: Yeah, get into the 34 00:03:30.870 --> 00:03:35.650 Andy Mort: the depths of it and the richness of it, and to do what what you feel 35 00:03:35.880 --> 00:03:38.300 Andy Mort: is important and that kind of thing. So. 36 00:03:38.690 --> 00:03:45.220 Andy Mort: Yes. So I have a community that yeah, my haven community is the real hub of of what I do. 37 00:03:45.560 --> 00:03:48.900 Andy Mort: So yeah, kind of coaching and group. 38 00:03:49.440 --> 00:03:55.899 Andy Mort: I'd say workshops. It's not really workshops. It's more sort of spaces to gather and to explore together. 39 00:03:56.230 --> 00:04:00.200 Andy Mort: And yeah, everything kind of flows out from there. 40 00:04:01.200 --> 00:04:25.200 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, that's so good to hear, because it it means already that you're not just. You know, the crazy one who came up with this term, and people are like, what is he smoking? It really shows. No, there's people who resonate with that. And and you know they want to be in community with others that want to look at business more slowly. And 41 00:04:25.290 --> 00:04:31.209 Sarah Santacroce: I love what you said. It's it's not just slowing things down, but doing less 42 00:04:31.410 --> 00:04:49.130 Sarah Santacroce: and doing those things even more slowly. So it's really the doing. Less part, I guess, has to do with creating the spaciousness for other things as well. And that's kind of what I talk about in the business. Like we're human book. It's it's not just this. 43 00:04:49.960 --> 00:05:05.079 Sarah Santacroce: you know, creating spaciousness to then like back in the days, you know, the 4 h work week kind of approach where? Where? You then, just, you know, spend your money by sitting on a beach somewhere in the Philippines. 44 00:05:05.080 --> 00:05:23.559 Sarah Santacroce: It really is creating spaciousness to be more human, to have the time to reconnect with humans or with nature, or to become an activist, or, you know, like spaciousness outside of your business, so that 45 00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:28.559 Sarah Santacroce: you can do the things a human wants to do and and find that 46 00:05:28.710 --> 00:05:39.420 Sarah Santacroce: I think almost like if we don't create that spaciousness, we don't remember what as humans, we could also do instead of just working. 47 00:05:39.420 --> 00:05:39.960 Andy Mort: Yeah. 48 00:05:39.960 --> 00:05:41.469 Sarah Santacroce: What does that bring up for you. 49 00:05:41.470 --> 00:05:44.960 Andy Mort: I mean, and I and I think what you 50 00:05:46.060 --> 00:05:59.559 Andy Mort: emphasize and do so well as well is is integrating that spaciousness and slowness into the into the model of how you do business. And I think that feels like you think about the 4 h work week. There's almost this separation. 51 00:06:00.675 --> 00:06:03.560 Andy Mort: Between the work you 52 00:06:03.810 --> 00:06:08.989 Andy Mort: like. Plough everything into this part of your life, so that then you can do this over here. 53 00:06:09.300 --> 00:06:09.970 Sarah Santacroce: Right. 54 00:06:09.970 --> 00:06:10.770 Andy Mort: And 55 00:06:10.910 --> 00:06:16.900 Andy Mort: while I think you know you, you obviously want space around work and not to be working all the time. 56 00:06:17.120 --> 00:06:22.559 Andy Mort: Actually, there's something that you can bring into the work that you do do, and the business that you're building 57 00:06:22.810 --> 00:06:32.619 Andy Mort: that puts that spaciousness and the the approach of slowness and marketing like you're human into that thing itself as well. So that 58 00:06:32.780 --> 00:06:38.139 Andy Mort: there's a yeah, you're bringing the whole of you to the whole of what you do. 59 00:06:38.340 --> 00:06:41.300 Andy Mort: And so, yeah, that kind of when you were just saying that 60 00:06:42.010 --> 00:06:48.180 Andy Mort: kind of brought that up for me and and them the modelling of a different way of 61 00:06:49.040 --> 00:06:52.750 Andy Mort: doing the business itself, and thinking about business, and thinking about what 62 00:06:53.460 --> 00:07:10.019 Andy Mort: what your business is enabling, both in terms of what you're maybe producing, or the service that you're offering, but also in the lives and the model that you're setting, and the example that you're setting to those who do business with you, and how that can become a contagious thing that 63 00:07:10.410 --> 00:07:14.340 Andy Mort: that spreads. And yeah, that sense of 64 00:07:15.110 --> 00:07:22.939 Andy Mort: of slowness or spaciousness or stillness that people might take away from an encounter with you. 65 00:07:23.180 --> 00:07:23.920 Sarah Santacroce: Hmm. 66 00:07:24.050 --> 00:07:39.149 Andy Mort: Then goes out into the world. And I think, as I was saying before, there's like that other energy that I feel very strongly at the moment where that sort of hustle grind culture like, and the 4 h work week, you know, do things. Really, it doesn't matter what you do, but just make money so that you can 67 00:07:39.330 --> 00:07:42.190 Andy Mort: then go off and do your own thing, or whatever 68 00:07:42.450 --> 00:07:46.950 Andy Mort: like that. That's a very palpable stress energy that 69 00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:52.700 Andy Mort: I think also is contagious, and spreads and leaves us feeling a bit. 70 00:07:54.260 --> 00:07:56.789 Andy Mort: I don't know. Pulled in all sorts of different directions. 71 00:07:57.070 --> 00:08:00.589 Andy Mort: overwhelmed, burning out all of those things. 72 00:08:01.100 --> 00:08:02.000 Andy Mort: Yeah. 73 00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:08.270 Sarah Santacroce: I think it's kind of part of the old business model where we are working ourselves. 74 00:08:09.150 --> 00:08:26.500 Sarah Santacroce: you know, to exhaustion, and we were working so hard, and we. And then we hear this idea of working less. And so we squeeze even more into maybe less time. And then, obviously, we're so exhausted that we then need 75 00:08:26.620 --> 00:08:44.709 Sarah Santacroce: that rest. But that's not what to me a business like we're human. Looks like it is like you said so. Well, building the slowness and the spaciousness into the business, so that I don't feel exhausted. And then. 76 00:08:44.890 --> 00:09:12.099 Sarah Santacroce: you know, just need to lie on the beach. I still want to be able to have the energy to use my time, that I created the space that I created for for other things, whether it be yes, to, you know, refill my own battery by being in nature, but also by giving back. I think that to me is an important part. Is 77 00:09:13.790 --> 00:09:21.190 Sarah Santacroce: we talked just before we started to recording. And and I said, like business as usual is. 78 00:09:21.320 --> 00:09:43.919 Sarah Santacroce: I'm so tired of that concept because it really is the time where business should not be as usual anymore. And we do have, you know, kind of this responsibility also as entrepreneurs to yeah, to find solutions to come up with creative ideas on how we can. 79 00:09:44.270 --> 00:09:53.710 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, make this world a better place for lack of better words. But that that's really what this is about. So I think. 80 00:09:53.900 --> 00:10:02.840 Sarah Santacroce: would you agree that the innovation and the creativity also needs that space? 81 00:10:02.990 --> 00:10:06.830 Sarah Santacroce: What have you seen with your community? What. 82 00:10:06.830 --> 00:10:12.990 Andy Mort: Yeah, absolutely. And I love making space for collaborative 83 00:10:13.250 --> 00:10:16.150 Andy Mort: innovation and creativity as well. And 84 00:10:16.500 --> 00:10:19.870 Andy Mort: seeing what emerges. So one of the things that we do is 85 00:10:20.030 --> 00:10:25.829 Andy Mort: what I call a phrase maze where we just take we have a monthly theme. 86 00:10:26.020 --> 00:10:31.399 Andy Mort: So this month we're recording this in February. Our monthly theme is confidence. It's a very, very broad 87 00:10:31.520 --> 00:10:35.270 Andy Mort: theme. And then can I break that down into 88 00:10:35.490 --> 00:10:42.319 Andy Mort: you know what? What are some phrases or idioms, or quotes or ideas associated with confidence that come to mind. 89 00:10:42.770 --> 00:10:49.610 Andy Mort: and then kind of take them, break them down a bit, try and play with them and talk about, you know. 90 00:10:49.740 --> 00:10:54.569 Andy Mort: Okay, what does that bring up for you that's going on in your life at the moment. And 91 00:10:55.390 --> 00:10:57.199 Andy Mort: those kinds of things. 92 00:10:57.670 --> 00:11:04.640 Andy Mort: And then how can we maybe play with this creatively? Is there a is there a poem in this? Is there some kind of 93 00:11:05.030 --> 00:11:08.749 Andy Mort: painting, or a song, or whatever that you could just 94 00:11:09.010 --> 00:11:14.230 Andy Mort: have a go with the yeah playing with experimenting with, and 95 00:11:14.770 --> 00:11:21.370 Andy Mort: both in the discussions that we have, and then the sort of follow up creative expression. 96 00:11:21.950 --> 00:11:24.310 Andy Mort: You just see things that you would never be able to 97 00:11:24.610 --> 00:11:31.649 Andy Mort: imagine coming up from the outset. And I love this sort of experimental approach to life in general, but like 98 00:11:31.970 --> 00:11:38.400 Andy Mort: trusting, trusting the hive, trusting the collaborative potential. 99 00:11:38.650 --> 00:11:44.150 Andy Mort: the and when you talk about, you know, solutions to issues and the importance of business 100 00:11:44.350 --> 00:11:52.930 Andy Mort: being involved in looking at the the wider picture of how the world is right now, and thinking, you know, what role do we play in 101 00:11:53.810 --> 00:11:56.750 Andy Mort: changing the direction that we're maybe moving in or 102 00:11:56.980 --> 00:11:59.360 Andy Mort: creating a better future, or whatever it is. 103 00:12:00.415 --> 00:12:05.030 Andy Mort: Actually, I think, collaboration working with 104 00:12:05.320 --> 00:12:15.319 Andy Mort: one another as partners, whatever that looks like, whether that's a business partnership or just socially doing stuff together 105 00:12:15.670 --> 00:12:20.640 Andy Mort: with a within values and with a vision, or whatever it is 106 00:12:21.170 --> 00:12:27.330 Andy Mort: that's so important. And again that turns business as usual on its head, because. 107 00:12:27.740 --> 00:12:35.409 Andy Mort: you know, seeing it won't mention who it is. But like the there's something going on at the moment that I'm looking into that 108 00:12:35.810 --> 00:12:42.010 Andy Mort: is a. It's this extraction that business people have to see 109 00:12:42.400 --> 00:12:53.360 Andy Mort: like the old way is seeing opportunities, being opportunistic and thinking, how can I capitalize on that and turn it back to me and make money from it? 110 00:12:54.118 --> 00:12:56.510 Andy Mort: Rather than how can I 111 00:12:56.870 --> 00:13:03.950 Andy Mort: be part of this movement. How can I, you know, contribute to this? What what does it need from me in order for this thing that I 112 00:13:04.060 --> 00:13:09.199 Andy Mort: connect with and believe in? Maybe it's an idea, or like a social movement, or whatever. 113 00:13:09.850 --> 00:13:13.749 Andy Mort: Yeah, what role can I take in that? That 114 00:13:14.050 --> 00:13:18.239 Andy Mort: makes me part of it rather than makes me possess it. 115 00:13:18.590 --> 00:13:25.070 Andy Mort: And I think that it's yeah, really important to start seeing business 116 00:13:25.430 --> 00:13:28.249 Andy Mort: through that eye through those eyes as well. 117 00:13:29.030 --> 00:13:30.040 Andy Mort: Yeah, if that. 118 00:13:30.400 --> 00:13:42.499 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, I'm so glad you brought up collaboration. And and this movement from we me to we that I mentioned in the in the book as well is kind of like. 119 00:13:43.610 --> 00:13:52.150 Sarah Santacroce: it's so aligned with slowing things down, because in order to collaborate, you do need to 120 00:13:52.460 --> 00:14:12.939 Sarah Santacroce: slow things down and actually let relationships develop right? Because the old way. And I'm definitely raising my hand here. The old way was affiliate marketing. That was like the big thing. And it was like, Oh, we are collaborating, but we weren't really collaborating, because we were just trying to 121 00:14:13.090 --> 00:14:29.440 Sarah Santacroce: tap into each other's reach to get more money for each of us, right? And and yeah, that's just that's just not human humane, whatever ethical even be. 122 00:14:29.720 --> 00:14:32.100 Sarah Santacroce: So in order to actually. 123 00:14:32.870 --> 00:14:41.870 Sarah Santacroce: yeah, create and nurture these relationships. Well, you need time. You, you know, an email exchange is not going to create 124 00:14:41.870 --> 00:15:05.360 Sarah Santacroce: relationship trust, based relationship. You need to invest the time in it. So that's another thing that is part of the business. But if you don't have the spaciousness to invest there, then it will always be transactional, and you will not actually be able to. 125 00:15:05.370 --> 00:15:06.310 Sarah Santacroce: you know. 126 00:15:06.350 --> 00:15:12.900 Sarah Santacroce: collaborate or create a movement or create the community because you don't have the time. You're always short on time. And you're always 127 00:15:12.950 --> 00:15:18.650 Sarah Santacroce: yeah struggling to create more transactions. Really. 128 00:15:18.900 --> 00:15:23.110 Andy Mort: I think it's such a good point. Yeah, that transactional. 129 00:15:23.680 --> 00:15:30.630 Andy Mort: because it is yet that affiliate model or the you work with people to combine 130 00:15:30.750 --> 00:15:34.540 Andy Mort: audiences or whatever it is. But yeah, ultimately, it's a 131 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:37.950 Andy Mort: I'll scratch your back. You scratch my back. And yeah. 132 00:15:38.300 --> 00:15:46.170 Andy Mort: you don't have time, as you say, for like relationships. And you know, anything really 133 00:15:46.360 --> 00:15:50.990 Andy Mort: valuable at a human level in life takes time. 134 00:15:51.410 --> 00:15:57.700 Andy Mort: and it takes a lot of that liminal in between space that 135 00:15:58.280 --> 00:16:10.340 Andy Mort: is not controlled in the sense of being outcome, oriented or like. We've got to achieve this in the time that we are together. It's like, actually, you think about the most meaningful friendships 136 00:16:10.450 --> 00:16:14.979 Andy Mort: they're full of just time with and just time being. 137 00:16:15.140 --> 00:16:21.219 Andy Mort: And again, like some of these gatherings that we have. 138 00:16:22.470 --> 00:16:27.050 Andy Mort: it's and it takes a huge amount of I guess 139 00:16:27.350 --> 00:16:39.969 Andy Mort: faith in the process, or just allowing almost surrender. Just allowing things. Okay. Whatever is going to come out of this is going to come out of it, and I can't contrive it or control it from the outset. But I can trust that 140 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:41.020 Andy Mort: hike. 141 00:16:41.130 --> 00:16:46.740 Andy Mort: Whatever will be will be here, and where. The more I've experienced doing that. 142 00:16:47.030 --> 00:16:49.540 Andy Mort: the more surprised I've been, and the more 143 00:16:49.920 --> 00:16:52.789 Andy Mort: like interesting things have come out of 144 00:16:53.660 --> 00:16:59.940 Andy Mort: gatherings, or, you know, conversations, or whatever. It is really difficult to 145 00:17:00.300 --> 00:17:07.050 Andy Mort: to remember that like you're like, right, need an agenda need a structure. And and it's like. Yes, structure can help with 146 00:17:07.369 --> 00:17:11.249 Andy Mort: keeping things going to a certain degree. But it's like you need to know where 147 00:17:11.859 --> 00:17:17.089 Andy Mort: planning becomes over planning, and it actually suffocates what might come out of it. 148 00:17:18.280 --> 00:17:23.019 Sarah Santacroce: I talk about this new business intimacy, and that 149 00:17:23.180 --> 00:17:44.519 Sarah Santacroce: is that exactly what you're talking about is like, usually in business. We have this way of being, which is very task oriented like, even if we do collaborate. There's, you know, a way to collaborate the old way, which is like, Okay, here's the agenda. Here's what we need to do. It's all about the doing right instead of 150 00:17:44.590 --> 00:17:59.979 Sarah Santacroce: yeah, allowing the time to just be and get to know each other. And and and yeah, that takes courage. I think that's the word came up when you were speaking. I'm like it takes a lot of courage to. 151 00:18:00.390 --> 00:18:08.230 Sarah Santacroce: you know. Bring this new business intimacy where we're all wired to think. Well, business should be this way. 152 00:18:08.430 --> 00:18:30.530 Sarah Santacroce: Business should be transactional. Business should be professional business should be, you know, a certain way. And so all of a sudden, we come along. And we're like, we're, you know, gonna do things slowly and more relationship based. And and it's just like people are like, what what's going on here. But I think. 153 00:18:30.560 --> 00:18:51.979 Sarah Santacroce: I think, yeah, that's to me. That's that's a business like, we're human. That is like, we're actually being humans in our business. And it's also more humane to us, because then our business is just an extension of who we are, and as solopreneurs. Isn't that, isn't that what we want right. 154 00:18:51.980 --> 00:19:00.489 Andy Mort: So, and it speaks to. I always remember something that you said in the workshop that we did a while back, which was 155 00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:04.339 Andy Mort: just because it works. It doesn't mean it works for you. 156 00:19:05.160 --> 00:19:08.120 Andy Mort: And I think that's something important 157 00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:16.709 Andy Mort: when maybe having conversations with people about like, why would you? Why would you set up your business like this? Or why would you approach your business like this? Because actually. 158 00:19:17.050 --> 00:19:22.989 Andy Mort: business as usual, or these old ways still work to some degree. Or there are these things that work 159 00:19:24.010 --> 00:19:32.409 Andy Mort: and actually putting in that bit. But it doesn't work for me. There's something about that that. Yeah, it doesn't fit who I am, or what I believe 160 00:19:32.800 --> 00:19:37.669 Andy Mort: a business should contribute or should be doing in the world. 161 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:41.469 Andy Mort: And so I love that little. It's a 162 00:19:41.660 --> 00:19:46.169 Andy Mort: an invitation to gentle rebelliousness. I think I see it as because. 163 00:19:46.360 --> 00:19:48.429 Andy Mort: yeah, it allows you to put yourself 164 00:19:48.940 --> 00:19:58.259 Andy Mort: and your own beliefs and your values and the things that matter to you at the heart of your business rather than being like. What are these strategies and tactics that everyone else is doing 165 00:19:58.370 --> 00:20:07.829 Andy Mort: that do maybe make a lot of money, or they make bring quick results, or whatever. So. But how do I feel, or how would I feel if I 166 00:20:08.260 --> 00:20:10.630 Andy Mort: achieved that in that way. And it's like. 167 00:20:10.630 --> 00:20:11.450 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah. 168 00:20:11.450 --> 00:20:20.849 Andy Mort: And from past experience I feel a bit icky, and I feel a bit like Oh, that didn't doesn't feel good to have done it like that. 169 00:20:20.990 --> 00:20:26.139 Andy Mort: So what? What would feel good to me? And you know, to me and to lots of people. 170 00:20:26.310 --> 00:20:32.230 Andy Mort: that kind of the slowness, the relational yeah, that spaciousness. Actually. 171 00:20:32.420 --> 00:20:36.350 Andy Mort: how can you make a business work with that at the heart of it? Is the question. 172 00:20:37.145 --> 00:20:37.940 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah. 173 00:20:38.530 --> 00:20:59.679 Sarah Santacroce: And to me, like the the 1st 2 books, marketing, like, we're, human and selling, like, we're human were very much about our ideal clients and bringing this, you know, gentleness and humane approach and ethical approach to our ideal clients. And business like we're human, is going to be more about 174 00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:24.869 Sarah Santacroce: us being in this business and and, like you said yes, finding out what works for us right, and feeling humane, and not exhausted and overwhelmed in our business so that we can actually do our life's work. And I used the peace sign as kind of part of the journey, because the idea is really to 175 00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:44.819 Sarah Santacroce: find your inner peace so that you can then bring change to the outer world. How do you see the relationship between inner peace and and you know, slowness. What have you seen from from your community, from your clients? 176 00:21:45.600 --> 00:21:47.880 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, is this part of the journey. 177 00:21:49.350 --> 00:21:51.410 Andy Mort: That's a great question. Yeah, 178 00:21:53.650 --> 00:21:57.279 Andy Mort: yeah. And I guess I like, I'd like to think in. 179 00:21:58.170 --> 00:22:01.800 Andy Mort: I guess spirals and circles rather than 180 00:22:02.280 --> 00:22:07.000 Andy Mort: straight lines, and so that when you talk about the here, the journey. 181 00:22:07.460 --> 00:22:13.020 Andy Mort: it's a kind of coming coming back round and like what you know what comes first, st the inner peace or the slowness. 182 00:22:13.140 --> 00:22:22.480 Andy Mort: It's all a mix, and it's all kind of yeah. You're experimenting with things that bring you. 183 00:22:23.410 --> 00:22:30.813 Andy Mort: I suppose, bring you to a place of how we're defining inner peace, maybe integrity. 184 00:22:32.840 --> 00:22:41.000 Andy Mort: a sense of satisfaction with how, how I am doing things or what I 185 00:22:41.190 --> 00:22:45.370 Andy Mort: have let go, and I think that's a big part of the equation is 186 00:22:45.840 --> 00:22:48.299 Andy Mort: being at peace with the things that you 187 00:22:48.450 --> 00:22:56.490 Andy Mort: don't have the capacity or the time or the energy to do, and almost actively letting those things go. 188 00:22:56.790 --> 00:23:01.200 Andy Mort: because obviously slowing down requires, they said 189 00:23:01.900 --> 00:23:09.569 Andy Mort: admission, or this acknowledgement that I can't do everything you know, and there are loads and loads of things that I would love to be able to do. It's not just. 190 00:23:10.560 --> 00:23:20.009 Andy Mort: you know, pressures that other people are putting on me that oh, you need to do this. You should do that. It's like, no, there's loads of things in life that I would absolutely love to have a go at. 191 00:23:20.420 --> 00:23:26.899 Andy Mort: But I can't. You know I'm a finite human being. And so really, coming to a place of peace 192 00:23:27.260 --> 00:23:39.010 Andy Mort: with that is important. And yeah, I think there's a there's a a point of. 193 00:23:40.780 --> 00:23:44.010 Andy Mort: I guess calmness and satisfaction in 194 00:23:45.890 --> 00:23:50.710 Andy Mort: again the gentle rebelliousness of letting go of things and of saying. 195 00:23:50.830 --> 00:23:53.799 Andy Mort: Do you know what these are? The? These are the things that matter. 196 00:23:54.010 --> 00:23:58.830 Andy Mort: There's just a few sort of real keystone ideas or 197 00:23:59.070 --> 00:24:03.970 Andy Mort: things that are part of my business or part of my life that actually there my 198 00:24:04.180 --> 00:24:08.640 Andy Mort: focus right now they're the things I'm committing to, and everything else can 199 00:24:09.110 --> 00:24:11.889 Andy Mort: can fall away. And and that's okay. 200 00:24:13.270 --> 00:24:15.270 Andy Mort: So yeah, I don't know if that answers that question. But. 201 00:24:15.270 --> 00:24:19.299 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, no, it totally doesn't. And 202 00:24:19.600 --> 00:24:37.570 Sarah Santacroce: it made me think of the word busy. You know how this is such a common word that we kind of throw around like a batch of honor that is part of the business world. Oh, if I'm busy, that means I'm successful, or that's how it's perceived. 203 00:24:37.700 --> 00:24:44.750 Sarah Santacroce: and so kind of making peace, making inner peace with this idea of 204 00:24:45.220 --> 00:25:10.500 Sarah Santacroce: maybe not wanting to be busy or wanting to be. What I start to say now is, I'm busy with life. And so that kind of, you know, can people can decide on their own? Well, what does that mean? Because if you're clearly, if you're saying I'm not busy. Well, people see that as something very bad, and they're like, Oh, no, I'm so sorry. 205 00:25:10.500 --> 00:25:10.820 Andy Mort: Yeah. 206 00:25:10.820 --> 00:25:36.229 Sarah Santacroce: Oh, your business is falling apart. You're not busy. So just making peace with this busyness thing and saying, Well, I'm not busy, but I am very focused, and I have very much clarity around the things that I do want to invest my time in. And and so it's, it's yeah. It doesn't give, give you this 207 00:25:36.620 --> 00:25:42.560 Sarah Santacroce: overwhelmed energy of that busyness does actually. So yeah. 208 00:25:42.560 --> 00:25:46.399 Andy Mort: Yeah, I love that. Yes, the words that we use are so 209 00:25:46.810 --> 00:25:50.050 Andy Mort: impactful, aren't they like? And yeah, I'm very aware of 210 00:25:50.280 --> 00:25:52.400 Andy Mort: someone says, how? How are things going? 211 00:25:52.710 --> 00:25:54.449 Andy Mort: So I'm busy. 212 00:25:54.450 --> 00:25:54.800 Sarah Santacroce: Okay. 213 00:25:54.940 --> 00:25:56.290 Andy Mort: Why have I said that? 214 00:25:56.845 --> 00:25:58.919 Andy Mort: But yeah, and also the 215 00:25:59.950 --> 00:26:06.489 Andy Mort: the yeah, really focusing in on the things that you want to do in the way that you want to do them. So like, recently, I've been 216 00:26:06.890 --> 00:26:12.580 Andy Mort: doing a lot more kind of hands on, I guess, creative. 217 00:26:12.850 --> 00:26:16.059 Andy Mort: So I've been doing a lot of collaging which I want to 218 00:26:16.410 --> 00:26:21.590 Andy Mort: been using. We have like a community Zine, that I put out once a month, and so I've been doing that for that. 219 00:26:21.850 --> 00:26:26.810 Andy Mort: But I also want to do more of that, for, like blog posts. 220 00:26:27.320 --> 00:26:29.869 Andy Mort: kind of featured images, and things that 221 00:26:30.410 --> 00:26:38.279 Andy Mort: until now, like constantly thinking like, oh, what? What's the most efficient way to to do that? Or like social media posts like? How can I 222 00:26:38.660 --> 00:26:41.030 Andy Mort: do them quicker? And all of that kind of thing. 223 00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:47.740 Andy Mort: And obviously, you know, generative AI is A is a big part of that question as well, or the conversation 224 00:26:48.130 --> 00:26:52.359 Andy Mort: there of like, how can you do things more efficiently and 225 00:26:52.620 --> 00:26:56.210 Andy Mort: be more productive and get more out there? And all of that stuff? 226 00:26:56.370 --> 00:26:57.489 Andy Mort: And actually. 227 00:26:58.060 --> 00:27:06.829 Andy Mort: yeah, I'm kind of asking. That question of myself is that useful? Does that does doing more and doing it more quickly. 228 00:27:07.950 --> 00:27:13.919 Andy Mort: give me more satisfaction, or like a sense of connection to what it is that I'm doing 229 00:27:15.350 --> 00:27:21.290 Andy Mort: and if not, what do I want to do more? Slowly? Again coming back to that question. Actually, I want to 230 00:27:21.520 --> 00:27:26.419 Andy Mort: put some time, and my humanity into some of these things that 231 00:27:26.630 --> 00:27:30.250 Andy Mort: we're being promised. We can do quicker if we take our humanity out of it. 232 00:27:31.220 --> 00:27:36.310 Andy Mort: And I really appreciate, you know, when you can tell that somebody has really put 233 00:27:36.710 --> 00:27:40.360 Andy Mort: themselves into a blog post or 234 00:27:40.560 --> 00:27:46.929 Andy Mort: even a social media post. It's like, Oh, I can see the human there, and I think it's becoming more and more obvious like. 235 00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:53.629 Andy Mort: however, you know, AI is getting more advanced. But there's still something of the uncanny about it that 236 00:27:53.860 --> 00:28:01.190 Andy Mort: is often quite evident or identifiable. And so 237 00:28:01.350 --> 00:28:07.709 Andy Mort: I don't know. I just see there's this moment that we're entering now, where there's this 238 00:28:07.860 --> 00:28:11.059 Andy Mort: call for more humanness, and there's a 239 00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:22.469 Andy Mort: an appetite for it whether we're consciously aware of that appetite or not. We see people. And it's like, Oh, yeah, I want people I want. There's a human there. And 240 00:28:22.920 --> 00:28:27.490 Andy Mort: I just find that, yeah, really attractive and compelling. 241 00:28:28.060 --> 00:28:28.780 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah. 242 00:28:28.990 --> 00:28:53.180 Sarah Santacroce: And I'm glad you brought up AI. That was going to be my last question as well like, How does that play into all of this slowness, where everything we see out there is more, quicker and more efficient and got to do more. Right? So yeah, I love how you brought that up. And then also the yeah, the need 243 00:28:53.700 --> 00:29:05.209 Sarah Santacroce: for the human connection. And I think that's what we're both doing in our communities. And I think that's really a big part of business like we're human to bring in. 244 00:29:05.670 --> 00:29:08.580 Sarah Santacroce: not just a humanness in text, because 245 00:29:08.940 --> 00:29:23.700 Sarah Santacroce: again, that can be easily replaced by by AI, but the humanness in like real connection, even, you know. Obviously, it's going to be still using technology. So online. 246 00:29:23.720 --> 00:29:38.089 Sarah Santacroce: But but also they're slowing things down. We recently started introducing meaningful questions in our meetups. So they're based on 247 00:29:38.090 --> 00:29:58.819 Sarah Santacroce: on a deck of cards by Thomas, whom I've interviewed recently, and they're called who cards. And so we pick 2 cards, and they have meaningful questions on them. And so we just have, you know, basically half an hour conversations. And these questions are not business questions. They're personal questions, right? 248 00:29:58.820 --> 00:30:08.149 Sarah Santacroce: But it allows the community members to yeah, to really get to know one another and to talk about their worldview and 249 00:30:08.180 --> 00:30:13.450 Sarah Santacroce: and things like that, that matter in terms of building these 250 00:30:13.660 --> 00:30:21.879 Sarah Santacroce: relationships, this new business intimacy. And and yeah, even if I think about 251 00:30:21.910 --> 00:30:51.089 Sarah Santacroce: you know how I used to sell my workshops or programs, and how I'm selling them now like before. It really was a transaction click here, and you know, buy now. And now I'm for the marketing, like we're human program. No, I am always wanting to talk to the person right? It's like this. This business intimacy is like, well, yes, it's a group program. But I want to, you know, get to meet you. And I think 252 00:30:51.090 --> 00:31:04.130 Sarah Santacroce: that kind of approach people will start to look for and see. Am I being heard and seen, or am I just, you know, a number. And people just want the money. 253 00:31:04.477 --> 00:31:05.519 Andy Mort: How have you? 254 00:31:06.090 --> 00:31:10.490 Andy Mort: How have you found that? Because I aware of a 255 00:31:11.310 --> 00:31:16.779 Andy Mort: again a conditioning that we have, you know, when someone wants a conversation, especially in a business context 256 00:31:16.890 --> 00:31:21.280 Andy Mort: like my, I'd go into sort of a they're going to want to 257 00:31:21.450 --> 00:31:24.490 Andy Mort: sell something to me, because I'm so used to 258 00:31:26.130 --> 00:31:45.969 Andy Mort: yeah, it's almost the whole persuasion or influence movement of like, you need to get on the phone and actually talk to someone so that you can force the sale. And so and obviously, that's not. It's the opposite of what you're doing, because it's like I want to connect. And I'm the same. I want to sort of yeah, reach out, have a human connection with people. 259 00:31:45.970 --> 00:31:46.490 Sarah Santacroce: Right. 260 00:31:47.330 --> 00:31:53.219 Andy Mort: And yeah, I wonder, have you experienced people's yeah sort of poised. 261 00:31:53.220 --> 00:31:57.266 Sarah Santacroce: Actually inbound. So I'm not, you know, 262 00:31:58.110 --> 00:32:18.000 Sarah Santacroce: proposing this conversation, but it's it's an option on the sales page. So they know that is a conversation they they pretty much already decided. Yes, I want to join, but there's no way that you can just buy now. They have to sign up to talk to me, and then 263 00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:46.420 Sarah Santacroce: I don't have to. I'm not selling anything because they've seen the program details. And they basically just want to find out, am IA good fit for this program? Oftentimes they just want to meet me, and, you know, have a conversation. And so that's what we do. We just have a conversation. And then sometimes it's about figuring out, how, how can we set up a humane payment plan? So it's very. 264 00:32:47.270 --> 00:32:54.989 Sarah Santacroce: I think it it really lowers or or it calms people's nervous systems because they know what to expect. 265 00:32:55.210 --> 00:33:17.470 Sarah Santacroce: and so giving them so much information upfront, and then just saying, hey? You want to talk about this. I know this is a great program. I've been running this for many years. Let's talk about it. If this is a good fit. So so that's usually how how it works. I know I see what you mean like by 266 00:33:17.720 --> 00:33:41.780 Sarah Santacroce: imposing this conversation. I don't think people would. Yeah, they they would probably be like, no, she wants to sell me something. And unfortunately, yeah, that's the reputation that business has. Right? It's like, Oh, you're gonna pitch me your stuff? So so I think what would work in this case is 267 00:33:42.220 --> 00:33:44.779 Sarah Santacroce: is picking a specific topic 268 00:33:45.460 --> 00:34:11.260 Sarah Santacroce: and say, how do you feel about what's happening in the world, or this specific thing like what we just addressed right at the beginning, before we started recording like, that would be a great topic to reach out to someone and say, Hey, what's your take on this? Have you seen this? And then just have a conversation? But then obviously not comments at the end, pitch your program, but just connect. 269 00:34:11.260 --> 00:34:15.649 Andy Mort: Yeah, I love that idea. Yeah. And that sort of resonates with the 270 00:34:15.830 --> 00:34:19.349 Andy Mort: the who cards, as you're saying as well. And 271 00:34:19.710 --> 00:34:23.249 Andy Mort: the it's like exploring the prompts that we do where 272 00:34:24.090 --> 00:34:29.359 Andy Mort: actually they might feel irrelevant to business, or they might feel like 273 00:34:29.790 --> 00:34:43.749 Andy Mort: what a waste of time you're talking about something that's irrelevant to this thing that really matters. And it's like, actually, that thing will come up if it needs to come up. And these are like, you know, train tracks along which the conversation 274 00:34:43.980 --> 00:34:46.840 Andy Mort: goes, and you'll see the things that are 275 00:34:47.100 --> 00:34:50.729 Andy Mort: in that environment around people as they start to talk. And then 276 00:34:51.030 --> 00:34:56.920 Andy Mort: you, you might explore that, and it might give rise to something completely unexpected. 277 00:34:57.100 --> 00:34:57.720 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah. 278 00:34:57.720 --> 00:35:00.470 Andy Mort: Saying earlier. So yeah, I really love that. 279 00:35:00.470 --> 00:35:25.059 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, one more thing I just thought of that I started doing is like, when I have an open workshop where I invite people outside of the community. I don't offer the recording for this workshop only to members, and so I do get some pushback every now and then for that, because people are just not used to it. 280 00:35:25.060 --> 00:35:33.340 Sarah Santacroce: You know they feel like, well, everybody else is offering a recording. Why aren't you? And and my answer is that I really. 281 00:35:33.670 --> 00:35:48.259 Sarah Santacroce: this is not just content. This is not just information. It really is part like, what I'm trying to show is the business like, we're human. So you're coming in as a human, and you participate. And 282 00:35:48.460 --> 00:35:56.710 Sarah Santacroce: and you know you get into breakout rooms and have conversations with peers about this topic. And and so. 283 00:35:57.110 --> 00:36:11.159 Sarah Santacroce: being in the in presence on Zoom is actually really important. I understand that in terms of you know, everybody's lives and time zones. Sometimes it doesn't work. 284 00:36:12.020 --> 00:36:19.060 Sarah Santacroce: But then you're really not like, just by getting the information you're not getting the actual message. 285 00:36:19.060 --> 00:36:19.410 Andy Mort: Yeah. 286 00:36:19.410 --> 00:36:21.960 Sarah Santacroce: Of that event or work. 287 00:36:21.960 --> 00:36:32.589 Andy Mort: More to it, isn't there? Yes, which is, you can't put into words the difference. It's like so like with the Zine that I mentioned earlier, which is called coming to our senses. 288 00:36:32.940 --> 00:36:35.419 Andy Mort: I've been doing. There's like a Pdf 289 00:36:36.210 --> 00:36:38.430 Andy Mort: visual version that I put out each month. 290 00:36:38.620 --> 00:36:45.450 Andy Mort: But I've also done audio and video versions. So I, you know, compose some music and then narrate what's. 291 00:36:45.990 --> 00:36:46.340 Sarah Santacroce: Content. 292 00:36:46.340 --> 00:36:58.500 Andy Mort: From the Zine over the top, and it's usually about 40 min long. And so we have a session on Zoom together. At the end of the month where I just play that video. And we just sit together and watch it. 293 00:36:59.010 --> 00:37:01.979 Andy Mort: And yeah, people have mentioned, like 294 00:37:02.490 --> 00:37:07.150 Andy Mort: having watched previous ones just on the sort of Youtube video 295 00:37:07.350 --> 00:37:12.729 Andy Mort: and then coming to their 1st live session with it, like the difference 296 00:37:13.190 --> 00:37:21.460 Andy Mort: it makes being there with others watching it live, and whether it's sort of the fact, you're not being distracted by a million one other things. 297 00:37:22.410 --> 00:37:23.550 Andy Mort: Or it's 298 00:37:23.720 --> 00:37:28.369 Andy Mort: you're aware that you're in presence. The presence of other like. There are people all around the world 299 00:37:28.500 --> 00:37:31.290 Andy Mort: there, at that same time doing the same thing as you. 300 00:37:31.650 --> 00:37:38.130 Andy Mort: and or something else like. It's really difficult to PIN down exactly what it is, but 301 00:37:38.500 --> 00:37:45.970 Andy Mort: the meaning of it, and the way that it lands in people is so much more than if they're just watching a video on their own. 302 00:37:46.420 --> 00:37:50.340 Andy Mort: she is speaks to, speaks to what you're saying there as well. Yeah. 303 00:37:50.340 --> 00:37:57.259 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, yeah, good. I guess one of the 304 00:37:57.690 --> 00:38:01.820 Sarah Santacroce: final questions would be like, How how 305 00:38:03.070 --> 00:38:14.619 Sarah Santacroce: entrepreneurs who are listening to this. And they're like, yeah, I could definitely use some more spaciousness in in my life and business. What would be like a 1st step that you would 306 00:38:14.990 --> 00:38:22.670 Sarah Santacroce: tell them to something to look at in their business, or something to do or not do. Probably. 307 00:38:23.690 --> 00:38:26.309 Andy Mort: Yeah, 1st step. 308 00:38:28.750 --> 00:38:30.719 Andy Mort: I think. And he I mean, he's 309 00:38:30.870 --> 00:38:40.020 Andy Mort: say all the time, but sort of just allowing yourself to to notice what matters to you in what you do and what 310 00:38:41.070 --> 00:38:48.920 Andy Mort: brings you satisfaction? And I've been exploring this this word satisfaction with a coaching client over the past 311 00:38:49.830 --> 00:38:55.760 Andy Mort: sort of 6 months or so and different sources of satisfaction. 312 00:38:57.120 --> 00:39:00.140 Andy Mort: And yeah, really reflecting on. 313 00:39:00.660 --> 00:39:11.800 Andy Mort: you know what's the most satisfying thing to you about the way that you approach your business. What's the most satisfying thing to you to hear from a client? What's what is satisfying. 314 00:39:11.970 --> 00:39:14.509 Andy Mort: you know, at the end of a day like 315 00:39:14.850 --> 00:39:19.360 Andy Mort: what has happened in a satisfying day, or whatever it is like. Just 316 00:39:19.550 --> 00:39:22.450 Andy Mort: yeah. Thinking about those different levels of satisfaction. 317 00:39:22.620 --> 00:39:26.439 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, and then, yeah, building a picture around that 318 00:39:27.100 --> 00:39:31.220 Sarah Santacroce: and then doing Murray condo on all the other things that. 319 00:39:31.220 --> 00:39:31.870 Andy Mort: Yeah. 320 00:39:31.870 --> 00:39:34.530 Sarah Santacroce: Doing, and are not satisfying right. 321 00:39:34.530 --> 00:39:39.659 Andy Mort: Yeah. And maybe yeah, because it's like the question of boundaries. It's 322 00:39:40.100 --> 00:39:47.409 Andy Mort: are you moving towards? If you move towards the things that are satisfying. Will the other things just fall away? Or 323 00:39:47.710 --> 00:39:49.440 Andy Mort: do you need to actively 324 00:39:49.830 --> 00:40:03.939 Andy Mort: extract certain things? It's most likely a mixture of both. But I think, yeah, for me. The first, st the starting point is moving towards the things that you know that matter most, and doing 325 00:40:04.260 --> 00:40:07.050 Andy Mort: things in the way that I want to do them. 326 00:40:07.210 --> 00:40:13.620 Andy Mort: And then, actually, those other things might naturally just, I'm no longer doing that interesting. 327 00:40:13.620 --> 00:40:16.184 Andy Mort: Okay, I don't need to bring it back. 328 00:40:17.295 --> 00:40:17.830 Andy Mort: Yeah. 329 00:40:18.270 --> 00:40:18.990 Sarah Santacroce: Great. 330 00:40:19.120 --> 00:40:30.080 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah. And then I mean, you're such a creative. You create your compose your own music and talking about collages and all of that so bringing more 331 00:40:30.300 --> 00:40:44.490 Sarah Santacroce: creativity, like just giving yourself permission to be more creative in your business. I think that comes with the that permission of letting go of the shoulds, you know, like we are 332 00:40:44.600 --> 00:40:52.580 Sarah Santacroce: like copying so much of what other people are telling us to do. But if you 333 00:40:52.720 --> 00:41:07.109 Sarah Santacroce: realize oh, but that is not actually satisfying than just going into this permission of well, what if I do it differently and more creatively? How would that? Yeah, give me more satisfaction? Right? 334 00:41:07.110 --> 00:41:10.030 Andy Mort: Definitely, yeah, and your creative voice. 335 00:41:10.470 --> 00:41:13.810 Andy Mort: Just allowing that to to bubble up and be part of 336 00:41:14.170 --> 00:41:21.410 Andy Mort: the way you express yourself through your business and humor as well. I think humor is a big part of that like. 337 00:41:21.410 --> 00:41:21.730 Sarah Santacroce: M. 338 00:41:21.730 --> 00:41:25.219 Andy Mort: Doing things that make you laugh, doing things that yeah, you. 339 00:41:25.220 --> 00:41:26.600 Sarah Santacroce: Yeah playfulness. 340 00:41:26.600 --> 00:41:29.489 Andy Mort: Play you playful? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. 341 00:41:29.710 --> 00:41:32.310 Andy Mort: Yeah. Because people connect to that absolutely. 342 00:41:33.880 --> 00:41:34.590 Sarah Santacroce: Lovely. 343 00:41:34.730 --> 00:41:41.629 Sarah Santacroce: so good to talk to you, Andy, please do share about your community, and where else people can find you. 344 00:41:41.890 --> 00:41:47.580 Andy Mort: Yeah, I mean, the best place is is the haven. So the hyphen haven.co 345 00:41:47.710 --> 00:41:51.049 Andy Mort: everything. I've kind of brought everything that I do 346 00:41:51.420 --> 00:41:54.340 Andy Mort: with this in respect to what I've been talking about today 347 00:41:54.460 --> 00:41:57.620 Andy Mort: under that banner. Now. So you, there's yeah a bunch of 348 00:41:57.930 --> 00:42:02.450 Andy Mort: free stuff there, you can join the community, join us for some live events and things and 349 00:42:03.290 --> 00:42:05.915 Andy Mort: get the podcast through there. 350 00:42:06.620 --> 00:42:17.459 Andy Mort: yeah, just head there. Thank you, Sarah, this is yeah, it's been such a delight to talk to you. And I love talking about these things in this way. So thank you for this 351 00:42:17.690 --> 00:42:19.419 Andy Mort: invitation. It's been lovely. 352 00:42:19.890 --> 00:42:33.060 Sarah Santacroce: Thank you. Yeah, thanks for the listeners who slowed down with us and are still listening. So thanks again, Andy, and we'll stay in touch and speak soon. 353 00:42:33.520 --> 00:42:35.070 Andy Mort: Thank you. Absolutely.