#9: Jeff Gothelf on Outputs vs. Outcomes, Building a Training Business, and Why He Loves Muay Thai
In this episode of the UX Fika podcast, I reconnect with Jeff Gothelf – author of Lean UX, Sense & Respond, Forever Employable, and most recently Who Does What By How Much?, his latest book with Josh Seidon on making OKRs actually work.
When we last spoke in 2021, Jeff was launching his own podcast and was deep in the third edition of Lean UX. Now, four years later, we catch up on what’s changed, and what hasn’t.
We talk about the surprising longevity of Lean UX, how OKRs became the missing piece in his body of work, and what it really means to move from outputs to outcomes (and why most teams still haven’t). Jeff shares what he’s seeing across the enterprise and startup space, from the pressure to implement AI without clear purpose, to the quiet resistance from people afraid of being replaced, or simply exposed.
We also get into his shift toward building a training business, how feedback loops helped him rethink pricing, why storytelling is a critical business skill, and how AI is shifting the speed, expectations, and shape of the work we do, but why he’s still optimistic, despite the disruptions ahead.
What we cover:
01:45 Reconnecting and Reflecting on Progress
04:46 The Evolution of Lean UX and Forever Employable
07:47 Understanding OKRs and Their Impact
10:44 Output vs. Outcomes: A Critical Distinction
13:39 The Power of Storytelling in Business
17:48 AI's Role in the Future of Work
23:36 Optimism Amidst Change: The Future of Employment
30:19 The Impact of AI on Employment and Creativity
35:43 Navigating Life Changes and New Beginnings
42:29 The Shift to Remote Work and Online Learning
49:25 Balancing Work, Health, and Personal Life
Where you’ll find Jeff:
Where you’ll find Anna & UX Fika: